Re: Cyclists Cycling - do they annoy you ? : Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:37 pm  

Big Graeme wrote: As we seem to be allowing selected links, have a look here http://youtu.be/3V37xHRA4C0 Intrigued by the staggering awfulness of that video I just watched it again. Is that really indicative of the kind of red light jumping cyclists do that pisses other road users off? Cos what she does in that video is pass through the lights just as they turn from amber to red. Stand at any junction on a busy flowing road and count how many cars you see doing exactly that same thing. At a very conservative estimate you'll see it at least once for every two cycles of the lights. Surely the red light jumping that p1sses people off is when a bike is inching across the line and then goes for it to get out of the advanced stop line trap. That's much more exclusively bike behaviour. I don't condone it, jumping red lights creates situations other road users have good reason not to expect and that's always stupid. But that sort of thing happens so you don't get caught with a pile of cars behind you all eager to accelerate past you, and it's often at a pinch point as the road ahead has a traffic island for pedestrians or to house the lights on the other side of the junction. I think people who jump lights in that fashion are crazy, and not just because they've jumped the light. Daft as it is it's almost the smart thing to do given the context. They're crazy because they put themselves on the bike symbol in front of a line of stationary cars all waiting for the light to change. I hate to be first in line at this junction on my way to work. It's a pretty standard road entrance to a roundabout controlled with traffic lights. To the left is a road with motorway rules and the exit straight ahead is a six lane carriageway. Given the opportunity motor vehicles fly through junctions like this, and it's exactly the kind of thing cyclists jump red lights to avoid getting caught up in. This is the context in which the infrastructure is inviting you to be the slowest, least protected thing out in front with many tons of impatience stacked up behind you. I don't jump the light here or any other junction. Also dangerous, but I much prefer to be just inside the middle lane on the left hand side, to the rear left side of the car in front in a place where the car behind can see me but also get past me (if it's a truck or a bus behind me then I'm taking the lane - they can wait until I'm past that first exit). If they'd spoken to some actual cyclists and tried to figure out why this behaviour happens they'd probably find it's this kind of scenario that brings it about. That video is complete nonsense. They've not only shown light jumping as a great many cars would do it on any given day of the week, and then pointed the finger at others for their lack of courtesy towards those cars, they're trying to communicate with cyclists from the viewpoint that the people who do jump lights are just being a bit cheeky and getting one over on the system and that's their only motivation. There certainly are people who are just impatient, but I suspect a small amount of consideration of why this behaviour actually happens would have led them to some different tactics. They haven't made any attempt to understand the behaviour they're trying to change, but of course changing behaviour isn't actually the point here. This is a video for the downtrodden driver to nod along to after a hard day of doing exactly the same bloody thing. And there still isn't a reflector and a light on the back of their example well behaved bike.

Big Graeme wrote: As we seem to be allowing selected links, have a look here http://youtu.be/3V37xHRA4C0 Intrigued by the staggering awfulness of that video I just watched it again. Is that really indicative of the kind of red light jumping cyclists do that pisses other road users off? Cos what she does in that video is pass through the lights just as they turn from amber to red. Stand at any junction on a busy flowing road and count how many cars you see doing exactly that same thing. At a very conservative estimate you'll see it at least once for every two cycles of the lights. Surely the red light jumping that p1sses people off is when a bike is inching across the line and then goes for it to get out of the advanced stop line trap. That's much more exclusively bike behaviour. I don't condone it, jumping red lights creates situations other road users have good reason not to expect and that's always stupid. But that sort of thing happens so you don't get caught with a pile of cars behind you all eager to accelerate past you, and it's often at a pinch point as the road ahead has a traffic island for pedestrians or to house the lights on the other side of the junction. I think people who jump lights in that fashion are crazy, and not just because they've jumped the light. Daft as it is it's almost the smart thing to do given the context. They're crazy because they put themselves on the bike symbol in front of a line of stationary cars all waiting for the light to change. I hate to be first in line at this junction on my way to work. It's a pretty standard road entrance to a roundabout controlled with traffic lights. To the left is a road with motorway rules and the exit straight ahead is a six lane carriageway. Given the opportunity motor vehicles fly through junctions like this, and it's exactly the kind of thing cyclists jump red lights to avoid getting caught up in. This is the context in which the infrastructure is inviting you to be the slowest, least protected thing out in front with many tons of impatience stacked up behind you. I don't jump the light here or any other junction. Also dangerous, but I much prefer to be just inside the middle lane on the left hand side, to the rear left side of the car in front in a place where the car behind can see me but also get past me (if it's a truck or a bus behind me then I'm taking the lane - they can wait until I'm past that first exit). If they'd spoken to some actual cyclists and tried to figure out why this behaviour happens they'd probably find it's this kind of scenario that brings it about. That video is complete nonsense. They've not only shown light jumping as a great many cars would do it on any given day of the week, and then pointed the finger at others for their lack of courtesy towards those cars, they're trying to communicate with cyclists from the viewpoint that the people who do jump lights are just being a bit cheeky and getting one over on the system and that's their only motivation. There certainly are people who are just impatient, but I suspect a small amount of consideration of why this behaviour actually happens would have led them to some different tactics. They haven't made any attempt to understand the behaviour they're trying to change, but of course changing behaviour isn't actually the point here. This is a video for the downtrodden driver to nod along to after a hard day of doing exactly the same bloody thing. And there still isn't a reflector and a light on the back of their example well behaved bike.

Re: Cyclists Cycling - do they annoy you ? : Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:29 am  

JerryChicken wrote:

And why does jumping red lights get under so many peoples skin, is it jealousy - lets face it, any cyclist who decides to take on a motor vehicle in a head to head (or sideways swipe as the case will be), is going to die, so why are so many motorised drivers so bitter about seeing cyclists gamble with their own lives so recklessly ?

From a usually well-balanced source, that is a surprising level of rhubarb. They are not only putting their own lives at risk, in the same way that a drunk driver does not put only them and their passengers at risk. Unless of course you think that all motorists will just plough through the cyclist without any deviation of course or braking?

Re: Cyclists Cycling - do they annoy you ? : Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:31 am  

JerryChicken wrote:

They also offer a protected no claims bonus do they not, and if you are the sort of motorist that drives around without that or without doing a price and features comparison on your insurance at least once a year, then frankly sir, you are a fool.

But to get back to the original point - why the bitterness and predictable jibes about something that can be fixed by a bit of imagination and simple road markings and which might even lead to an increase in citizen health - why not follow the lead set by other european countries and recognise that the pedal cyclist has a legitimate right to use the road system without the ever present danger of being crushed by someone who's line of defence is always "sorry mate, didn't see you" ?

Which not everybody qualifies for, as far as I'm aware.

Re: Cyclists Cycling - do they annoy you ? : Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:12 am  

carl_spackler wrote:

From a usually well-balanced source, that is a surprising level of rhubarb. They are not only putting their own lives at risk, in the same way that a drunk driver does not put only them and their passengers at risk. Unless of course you think that all motorists will just plough through the cyclist without any deviation of course or braking?

So what is it that irritates you so much about seeing someone else break a road traffic law when its has no effect on you at all, why is this issue ALWAYS raised whenever the subject of cyclists is brought up as if everyone on a bike has no regard for their own life at all ?

Re: Cyclists Cycling - do they annoy you ? : Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:17 am  

Scenario going home from work last night.
Single road with line of traffic waiting at a red light.
Bradley Mamil cycles up on the ouside, and goes through the lights which are still on red. Chance of traffic joining from the right, which he ignores.
The road ahead then inclines upwards to another set of lights at the top of the hill.
Our lycra freind then pounds up the hill and the lights turn to green behind him, and the traffic then follows.
Now instead of keeping to the left, and allowing traffic to re-overtake, he hogs the centre of the road, slowing all the time as the slope increases. The queue of traffic follows behind at his pace.
The lights at the top of the hill are on green, but 20 or 30 metres before he reaches them, they turn to red.
He again ignores the danger aspect and goes straight through, leaving the traffic behind stopped at the lights.
If he had shown due consideration to other road users and moved over to the left when ascending at least half a dozen cars would have got through the second junction before the lights turned red.

Before anyone says that he was cycling in the centre of the road for his own safety, why was he also ignoring his own safety (and that of others) by cycling through 2 sets of red lights?

It's this apparent disregard for other road users that annoys me.

Re: Cyclists Cycling - do they annoy you ? : Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:57 am  

JerryChicken wrote:

So what is it that irritates you so much about seeing someone else break a road traffic law when its has no effect on you at all, why is this issue ALWAYS raised whenever the subject of cyclists is brought up as if everyone on a bike has no regard for their own life at all ?

1. I don't for one minute think that it's all cyclists. My mother has been a responsible cyclist nearly all of her life, despite never even trying to learn to drive and therefore lacking a full knowledge of the road traffic laws (which I don't really think should be allowed, but is another argument). She has, however, grasped that red means stop.
2. I don't subscribe to the idea that I shouldn't care about something if it doesn't directly affect me.
3. It's dangerous road use and as such a danger to others. It doesn't get me raging, but it does irritate me, as does seeing drivers overtaking dangerously, tailgating, carving people up, and all manner of other things. These people put the possible health (and in extreme cases lives) of others at risk, I simply don't see why the fact that a cyclist will probably come off worse means that we should be less bothered about the damage they could cause to others by breaking the law.

To me, one of the few responsibilities we all have in life is to try and behave in such a way that considers how we affect others and minimise our 'negative' output. It's an extensions of the 'do unto others' mentality, I suppose. Certain cyclists' behaviour is contrary to that spirit, as are a great many other things in life, and I'll complain about any and all them if the subject is brought up. I'm not singling cyclists out, that's just what the thread is about. Start one about motorists and I'll chime in there, too.

Re: Cyclists Cycling - do they annoy you ? : Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:56 am  

wigan_rlfc wrote:

A570 Rainford bypass, large dual carriageway with wide cyclepaths seperated from the main carriageway on either side yet the lycra brigade (including Sir Brad himself) are usually found on the main road with the lorries and busses. I just don't get it.

Trouble with them cyclepaths is that they are covered in debris and glass all the way along. I rode down there once, and ended up with 2 punctures.

I just avoid that bypass now as its more trouble than its worth.

Re: Cyclists Cycling - do they annoy you ? : Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:38 pm  

tedglen wrote:

Before anyone says that he was cycling in the centre of the road for his own safety, why was he also ignoring his own safety (and that of others) by cycling through 2 sets of red lights?

It's this apparent disregard for other road users that annoys me.

Agreed.

He'll be dead soon though, don't worry about him too much.

Re: Cyclists Cycling - do they annoy you ? : Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:07 pm  

JerryChicken wrote:

He'll be dead soon though, don't worry about him too much.

What get's me, everyone here appears to be talking about grown men, not kids. (including my example).
All that I can say is they should know better. ffs.

Re: Cyclists Cycling - do they annoy you ? : Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:33 pm  

Quite ironic that I've just been out in the car, Overtook a cyclist then got to a junction and stopped for a red light. Needless to say the cyclist caught up and went straight through the red light having a quick glance to his left and deciding that nothing was coming.

I don't think I've seen it mentioned on this thread yet but a programme on the BBC a few months ago was really interesting. Basically they followed cyclists and motorists in London showing the idiotic stuff both sets of people got upto.

I remember it mainly for a young lad who rode his Bike with a camera on his helmet who came across as one of the most arrogrant people I've ever seen. Who basically thought that because he had the camera he could do what he liked and if anyone gave him any jip then the little camera on his helmet made him invincible...