Re: Brexit Anyone? : Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:14 pm  

The thing about this post-Truth politics era is that it's not just Leave and Trump/Alt-Right supporters who have a sketchy relationship with objective truths. Claims of racism/homophobia/anti-Semitism/Islamaphobia/[other bigotry] or the catastrophic consequences from doing/not doing some specific thing (e.g. voting Leave, cutting funding for X or Y cause or service) have become so gratuitously over used to push private interest that it's hard to determine whether the claim is true, is a lie, or is being misused to describe something that is more complex. Even if there is some truth in whatever is being claimed you have to ask whether the person behind it is engaging special pleading or rent seeking.

Once side might look obviously undesirable, but a closer look at the opposing side can show it's not so pretty either. So Brexit will bring severe consequences, but the EU is hideously corrupt in the way it funnels taxpayers cash to specific client groups. Trump is a vulgar bigot, but Clinton has ambiguous links with certain wealthy interests. Trump is alleged to have committed sexual misconduct, but Clinton is alleged to have helped suppress similar allegations against her husband. People make accusations that something is racist/homophobic/anti-Semitic/Islamaphobic/other and then conveniently offer paid services which will rectify same but in vague and unaccountable ways (and failure to invest in these convenient, vague and unaccountable services is proof of the claims). And there are endless NGOs and special interest groups claiming terrible things will happen if their funding/funding to their client group is threatened by decision X or Y, even if they cant actually justify or demonstrate this. Everybody lies.

[Bullseye]

Re: Brexit Anyone? : Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:49 pm  

Such a nuanced view doesn't find much space in today's echo chamber of news on social media.

Re: Brexit Anyone? : Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:24 pm  

Kelvin's Ferret wrote:

The thing about this post-Truth politics era is that it's not just Leave and Trump/Alt-Right supporters who have a sketchy relationship with objective truth...

The main thing I've noticed over the last few years of politics is that a campaign is rarely based on how good an actual candidate is, it's about how bad they can make the other candidate look.

Re: Brexit Anyone? : Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:15 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Yesterday I went to lunch hosted by Nat West - the guest speaker was Stephen Boyle - head economist at RBS.

Very interesting comments the highlights of which were:
1. The UK economy is in pretty good shape 2% growth isn't spectacular but not bad
2. The Euro is a mess and if Greece left the Euro it would be a much bigger calamity that the UK leaving
3. He could not understand anyone investing in the Euro it is so unstable.
4. Very few companies move their HO - his view is London will still be the major European financial in 20 years time
5. The UK need to do a deal with the EEC that is better than the WTO basic deal otherwise it could be tough
6. Europe has a huge problem in replacing the billions the UK contributes to its budget
7. No chance of Scotland leaving the union - there position is worse than Greece
8. No chance of -ve interest rates - this would lead to higher interest rates for consumers
9. JM Keynes is alive and kicking.

Two points:
NatWest is state owned,
I would not trust anything NatWest / RBS says on financial matters. Biggest loss makers in U.K. corporate history. Hardly competent!

Re: Brexit Anyone? : Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:17 pm  

One thing I've noticed about right wing postings is that it's money first, people somewhere else.
Quite strange if you think about it.
Money is an intangible concept and people are real.
Shows how imaginative people are and easily led.

Re: Brexit Anyone? : Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:53 am  

Kelvin's Ferret wrote:

Everybody lies.

If we all filter our consumption of 'news' through this one unalterable truth, things might change for the better.

Re: Brexit Anyone? : Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:42 am  

Roy Haggerty wrote:

The majority of Brexit supporters were pensioners and Tories. They aren't going to express their outrage on the streets - after all, it's hard to take on a police horse with a zimmer frame. They get their far-right mouthpieces like the Express, Mail and Sun to do it for them. Most working people voted Remain, and the younger you were, the more likely you were to vote Remain. So if (and this won't happen, sadly, because our polticians are cowardly gets) Parliament now refused to invoke Article 50, thereby doing its job and saving the country from self-harm, I would personally volunteer to police any demo, if only for the opportunity of kicking the stick away from some clueless Tory pensioner who thinks it's still 1954.

I work in a warehouse in St. Helens. When we where discussing the referendum before it happened the vast majority of my colleagues said they where voting to leave. That included 19 year old unskilled lads and girls aswell as the managing directors. The only people who said they were voting remain were the Pilks pensioners who were worried that their investments would drop in value.

As far as I can see there is no voter regret.

Re: Brexit Anyone? : Sat Nov 19, 2016 9:08 am  

Roy Haggerty wrote:
The majority of Brexit supporters were pensioners and Tories. They aren't going to express their outrage on the streets - after all, it's hard to take on a police horse with a zimmer frame. They get their far-right mouthpieces like the Express, Mail and Sun to do it for them. Most working people voted Remain, and the younger you were, the more likely you were to vote Remain. So if (and this won't happen, sadly, because our polticians are cowardly gets) Parliament now refused to invoke Article 50, thereby doing its job and saving the country from self-harm, I would personally volunteer to police any demo, if only for the opportunity of kicking the stick away from some clueless Tory pensioner who thinks it's still 1954.

Nothing like simplifying things.hmmmm

Re: Brexit Anyone? : Sat Nov 19, 2016 10:59 am  

wigan_rlfc wrote:

I work in a warehouse in St. Helens. When we where discussing the referendum before it happened the vast majority of my colleagues said they where voting to leave. That included 19 year old unskilled lads and girls aswell as the managing directors. The only people who said they were voting remain were the Pilks pensioners who were worried that their investments would drop in value.

As far as I can see there is no voter regret.

Have you worked out what the actual tangible benefits are yet of leaving ?
(Anyone can answer this one, anyone)

Re: Brexit Anyone? : Sat Nov 19, 2016 11:46 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Have you worked out what the actual tangible benefits are yet of leaving ?
(Anyone can answer this one, anyone)

It's a bit like sports clubs refusing to leave their own squalid spiritual homes rather than sharing a better facility elsewhere , it makes you ' feel ' better