Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:05 am  

bren2k wrote:

Why?

Their position couldn't be more straightforward - it just happens to be a bit too grown up for most people to tolerate.

Especially for you, here it is in just 19 words:

"You can have a second vote on whether to choose a Labour Brexit, or remain in the EU."

Sorry Bren but, I've had this discussion with loads of my pals and for those not in the "Labour bubble", this is just an awful position.

Even IF Labour were to gain power and we had a "confirmatory vote" what on earth happens then ?
We've had political paralysis for the last 3 years and a second vote will merely prolong the uncertainty.

This is a policy that tries to keep everyone happy but, in the end, will please nobody.
Labour are equally (maybe even more) fractured on Brexit than the Tories and this policy just doesnt work.

It will all look great up until the point of the second vote and then we will be back in the brown stuff.

The only circumstance that this may have been a runner is, if there had been a huge swing in either direction on Leave / Remain, which there seems little evidence of and therefore, all this does is kill an amount of time and for those who voted out, just imagine how their anger would build.

Sadly, their solution will not solve the issue and it wont do anything to heal the deepening divisions in the country and all of this while the ecconomy further stagnates.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:19 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Sorry Bren but, I've had this discussion with loads of my pals and for those not in the "Labour bubble", this is just an awful position.

Even IF Labour were to gain power and we had a "confirmatory vote" what on earth happens then ?
We've had political paralysis for the last 3 years and a second vote will merely prolong the uncertainty.

This is a policy that tries to keep everyone happy but, in the end, will please nobody.
Labour are equally (maybe even more) fractured on Brexit than the Tories and this policy just doesnt work.

It will all look great up until the point of the second vote and then we will be back in the brown stuff.

The only circumstance that this may have been a runner is, if there had been a huge swing in either direction on Leave / Remain, which there seems little evidence of and therefore, all this does is kill an amount of time and for those who voted out, just imagine how their anger would build.

Sadly, their solution will not solve the issue and it wont do anything to heal the deepening divisions in the country and all of this while the ecconomy further stagnates.

So what are you suggesting - crash out with no deal?

You seem to have a deep yearning for binary politics - a simple solution to an intractably complex situation - whilst simultaneously describing and acknowledging that complexity; it's a very Newsnight approach, whereby a narrative only works if there are two polar opposite positions to pit against each other. The last 3 years have very clearly demonstrated that both parliament and the public are hung on this matter - and the tribal, binary, black or white political model we use, simply doesn't solve it.

Your position is more confusing than Labour's.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:25 am  

bren2k wrote:

Why?

Their position couldn't be more straightforward - it just happens to be a bit too grown up for most people to tolerate.

Especially for you, here it is in just 19 words:

"You can have a second vote on whether to choose a Labour Brexit, or remain in the EU."

This is a bit of a rant post, but it isn’t directed at you. It is just frustration and disappointment, and the prospect of what is to come.

It screams uncertainty and abdication of responsibility, a refusal to advocate or even take a position. Yes, I appreciate that politics should be more nuanced than it often is, but this isn’t clever on any level, imo, as policy or politics.

Eventually they have to choose, or why would anybody whose voting choice is heavily influenced by Brexit choose them? It’s a shrug, ‘I dunno, I just wish it’d go away, can you decide for us?’ approach.

Forced into a corner, Johnson did eventually stop pretending there was a magical solution to the NI border issue and chucked the DUP overboard. Whether is was good or bad, right or wrong, it was at least a decision.

What would happen if Labour won and negotiated a new softer Brexit deal? Would they stay neutral, or advocate that deal in the second referendum? They’re not going to win, so it is a moot point, but it’s such an unattractive policy, I half wonder whether they want to win this time. 5 years of Boris and the realities of a Tory Brexit, might leave them well positioned to win in 2024 with a new leader, but we have to survive those 5 years first.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:46 am  

bren2k wrote:

So what are you suggesting - crash out with no deal?

You seem to have a deep yearning for binary politics - a simple solution to an intractably complex situation - whilst simultaneously describing and acknowledging that complexity; it's a very Newsnight approach, whereby a narrative only works if there are two polar opposite positions to pit against each other. The last 3 years have very clearly demonstrated that both parliament and the public are hung on this matter - and the tribal, binary, black or white political model we use, simply doesn't solve it.

Your position is more confusing than Labour's.

Ultimately the country has to do something. The EU will eventually stop agreeing to extensions.

I think Labour could say ‘we’re going to respect the Brexit vote, but go for a deal that leaves us more closely aligned with the EU on trade and standards, in the interests of national prosperity and quality of life’. So they’re not upsetting the ‘concerns about EU immigration’ section of their base, and they hopefully allay the fears of workers and of businesses who rely on EU trade. The fans of Rees-Mogg and Farage won’t vote labour anyway, so no loss there. Some Labour remainers will switch to the Lib Dems maybe, but many would be sophisticated enough to vote tactically where relevant.

Or they could come out advocating Remain, to appeal to the young, liberal, metropolitan section of their support. The People’s Vote campaign imploding makes that more difficult now though.

Politics is complicated, and this is a difficult problem. I just don’t think you solve it by adding complexity and trying to ride two bikes at once.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:30 pm  

bren2k wrote:

So what are you suggesting - crash out with no deal?

You seem to have a deep yearning for binary politics - a simple solution to an intractably complex situation - whilst simultaneously describing and acknowledging that complexity; it's a very Newsnight approach, whereby a narrative only works if there are two polar opposite positions to pit against each other. The last 3 years have very clearly demonstrated that both parliament and the public are hung on this matter - and the tribal, binary, black or white political model we use, simply doesn't solve it.

Your position is more confusing than Labour's.

Come on Bren, I think that you are being a little more than disingenuous there.

During any political campaign, any and every party needs a clear message and for 3 years, due to the split within it's membership and more importantly, its parliamentary party, Labours position has become more and more fudged.

Labour has gone from a party which was originally campaigning to remain, to a party that then became on of "leave" to now campaigning on neither.
Members of the shadow cabinet, most notably Thornberry, have said that they would negotiate a deal and then vote against it ??? and you question my position.
Anyone going into a negotiation has to first know exactly what they want. Firstly and ideal position and secondly, what they would accept and then strive to achieve one of these outcomes.
How the hell could Labour negotiate, when they dont even know if they want to be in or out - it's laughable and at the risk of repeating myself, they should have decided by now (it's been 3 years since the referendum), exactly what their position is.
They needed to grow a pair and fight to remain and not just try to wreck the Tory deal(s) in the hope of gaining power in the UK and both you and I are going to lose twice.
Very soon we will have a Tory government AND be out of the EU.

It's a bloody disgrace that a so called "remain" part has sat on the fence for 3 years and in Corbyn's case, didn't fight harder for remain in the first instance.
This may have rid us of Cameron and Osborne but, look what we have instead.

I'm seriously thinking of emigrating.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:59 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Come on Bren, I think that you are being a little more than disingenuous there.

During any political campaign, any and every party needs a clear message and for 3 years, due to the split within it's membership and more importantly, its parliamentary party, Labours position has become more and more fudged.

Labour has gone from a party which was originally campaigning to remain, to a party that then became on of "leave" to now campaigning on neither.
Members of the shadow cabinet, most notably Thornberry, have said that they would negotiate a deal and then vote against it ??? and you question my position.
Anyone going into a negotiation has to first know exactly what they want. Firstly and ideal position and secondly, what they would accept and then strive to achieve one of these outcomes.
How the hell could Labour negotiate, when they dont even know if they want to be in or out - it's laughable and at the risk of repeating myself, they should have decided by now (it's been 3 years since the referendum), exactly what their position is.
They needed to grow a pair and fight to remain and not just try to wreck the Tory deal(s) in the hope of gaining power in the UK and both you and I are going to lose twice.
Very soon we will have a Tory government AND be out of the EU.

It's a bloody disgrace that a so called "remain" part has sat on the fence for 3 years and in Corbyn's case, didn't fight harder for remain in the first instance.
This may have rid us of Cameron and Osborne but, look what we have instead.

I'm seriously thinking of emigrating.

I don't disagree that it's a tough position - but I have some respect for attempts to bring both sides together; I think Corbyn has tried perhaps too hard to appeal to both sides of the argument - maybe naively assuming that trying to respect the referendum but in a softer way, would give both leavers and remainers some satisfaction. The problem of course - and this goes to my original point - is that most of the players have created a very binary argument and deliberately set both halves of the population against each other, for their own ends. Now we're in a position where no achievable version of Brexit will satisfy anyone.

Where we do agree is that there are elements of the PLP that have worked against Corbyn from the get go; and this is where I veer away from his nice guy approach - I would have purged the Blairite rump years ago, instead of trying to appease and win them over.

Good luck emigrating - you'd best get it sorted quick, before we lose our right to live and work in 27 EU countries; unless you're thinking of the good old US of A - in which case, you will be out of the frying pan into the fire. Personally, I'm waiting for Scotland to achieve independence and rejoin the EU - then I'll be heading North, never to return!

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:15 pm  

bren2k wrote:

I don't disagree that it's a tough position - but I have some respect for attempts to bring both sides together; I think Corbyn has tried perhaps too hard to appeal to both sides of the argument - maybe naively assuming that trying to respect the referendum but in a softer way, would give both leavers and remainers some satisfaction. The problem of course - and this goes to my original point - is that most of the players have created a very binary argument and deliberately set both halves of the population against each other, for their own ends. Now we're in a position where no achievable version of Brexit will satisfy anyone.

Where we do agree is that there are elements of the PLP that have worked against Corbyn from the get go; and this is where I veer away from his nice guy approach - I would have purged the Blairite rump years ago, instead of trying to appease and win them over.

Good luck emigrating - you'd best get it sorted quick, before we lose our right to live and work in 27 EU countries; unless you're thinking of the good old US of A - in which case, you will be out of the frying pan into the fire. Personally, I'm waiting for Scotland to achieve independence and rejoin the EU - then I'll be heading North, never to return!

I still believe that Corbyn couldn.t quite stomach having to be on the same side as Cameron and Osborne during the referendum and I fully understand his feelings, I too would have been reticent but, had he campaigned hard, particularly among the younger 18-25 voters, the result could have been different and I'm struggling to forgive him on this.

Apart from that, I will be over the border and back into the EU before you.

Never liked haggis but, I could cope with the rest

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:38 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Apart from that, I will be over the border and back into the EU before you.

Never liked haggis but, I could cope with the rest

See you there. We could have a RL Remainers ex-pats group.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:44 pm  

tigertot wrote:

See you there. We could have a RL Remainers ex-pats group.

It'll be like Stewart Lee's fantasy remain citadel, full of wizards and poets, and people who can understand data.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:57 pm  

bren2k wrote:

It'll be like Stewart Lee's fantasy remain citadel, full of wizards and poets, and people who can understand data.

It'll have to have a t'committee.