Re: T. May the worst prime minister ever ? : Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:18 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

However, what really takes the pi$$ is when there are terrorist attacks and major incidents and we all expect those undervalued employees to go above and beyond to help us, whilst at the same time, telling them that they have to live on less and less (in real terms), I bet they love it.

Then you get wally brains saying their pay should be 'performance related'. How do you mark the performance of an A&E nurse or firefighter? Would it be based on how many stitches a minute they can put into some mickey artist's self-inflicted head wound or how many deliberately started fires they can put out in a week? For the hours and work these people put in, they can't be paid highly enough.

Re: T. May the worst prime minister ever ? : Tue Jul 04, 2017 6:26 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

For any industry to have wages effectively frozen for 7 years, with no end to that "freeze" is just wrong and whilst those who have been in local government for 20 years + may have superb pensions, that most of us can only dream of, this isn't the case for newcomers.
Personally, I wouldn't stay in that environment and would, as many appear to be doing, look for work elsewhere.
However, what really takes the pi$$ is when there are terrorist attacks and major incidents and we all expect those e itundervalued employees to go above and beyond to help us, whilst at the same time, telling them that they have to live on less and less (in real terms), I bet they love it.

Can you imagine taking a job and not getting a rise for 7 year +

AND on top of this, our beloved MP's happily took an inflation busting increases and this was partly to discourage them from fiddling their expenses.

Those public sector workers would have been sacked for doing the same but, we're happy to go along with such appalling double standards.

I think you will find there are millions of people working in the private sector that are struggling to get a 1% salary increase every year. Most increases are based on performance and not an automatic entitlement. The people getting the biggest increases will be those on the minimum wage. The idea that salary increases should be given regardless and at unaffordable levels doesn't make any kind of economic sense. If private businesses cannot afford an increase they don't give it and they are the very people providing much of the finance to support the public sector.

So in the private sector what happens - we move jobs if we are not happy with our T&Cs so there is nothing stopping the public sector employees doing the same. There are very few jobs in the public sector that a similar alternative is not available in the private sector - fire fighters is one but they are few and far between. The reality of the private sector might not suit a lot of these employees closeted by the state and the benefits outside of salary that simply don't exist in the private sector.

All the public expect the emergency services to do in an emergency is to do their job - the job they are trained to do training that has been paid for by us in the majority of cases. As far as I can see that is what happened at Grenfell - did the firefighters do more than they would have done at any other fire?

On the MPs I completely agree - nasty bunch of hypocrites.

Re: T. May the worst prime minister ever ? : Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:35 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

I think you will find there are millions of people working in the private sector that are struggling to get a 1% salary increase every year. Most increases are based on performance and not an automatic entitlement. The people getting the biggest increases will be those on the minimum wage. The idea that salary increases should be given regardless and at unaffordable levels doesn't make any kind of economic sense. If private businesses cannot afford an increase they don't give it and they are the very people providing much of the finance to support the public sector.

So in the private sector what happens - we move jobs if we are not happy with our T&Cs so there is nothing stopping the public sector employees doing the same. There are very few jobs in the public sector that a similar alternative is not available in the private sector - fire fighters is one but they are few and far between. The reality of the private sector might not suit a lot of these employees closeted by the state and the benefits outside of salary that simply don't exist in the private sector.

All the public expect the emergency services to do in an emergency is to do their job - the job they are trained to do training that has been paid for by us in the majority of cases. As far as I can see that is what happened at Grenfell - did the firefighters do more than they would have done at any other fire?

On the MPs I completely agree - nasty bunch of hypocrites.

Once a gain, you deliberately miss the point.
The main problem is not the 1% cap, it's the fact that there have been 2 years of a freeze plus, 5 years at 1% and no end in sight.
AS for "doing their job" yes, that is true but, after the london bridge attack, nurses were going in to cover, regardless of whether they should have been there which, does seem "above and beyond".

Finally, if we are agreeing that the "freeze" in wages is forcing people to look elsewhere, including the madness of going to an agency and then coming back to work in our hospitals on more money !!!!, where is the sense in that.
Ok, those who go down this route would sacrifice some pension rights etc but, it's just madness.

Whilst there may have been a case for austerity 7 years ago, to keep this kind of cap, indefinitely, is just wrong and maybe, this is one reason why so many NHS employees are from outside the UK and we are going down the route of "cheap" labour.

Re: T. May the worst prime minister ever ? : Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:06 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Once a gain, you deliberately miss the point.
The main problem is not the 1% cap, it's the fact that there have been 2 years of a freeze plus, 5 years at 1% and no end in sight.
AS for "doing their job" yes, that is true but, after the london bridge attack, nurses were going in to cover, regardless of whether they should have been there which, does seem "above and beyond".

Finally, if we are agreeing that the "freeze" in wages is forcing people to look elsewhere, including the madness of going to an agency and then coming back to work in our hospitals on more money !!!!, where is the sense in that.
Ok, those who go down this route would sacrifice some pension rights etc but, it's just madness.

Whilst there may have been a case for austerity 7 years ago, to keep this kind of cap, indefinitely, is just wrong and maybe, this is one reason why so many NHS employees are from outside the UK and we are going down the route of "cheap" labour.

We have gone down the road of cheap labour because most people want to buy everything cheaply. It's a mindest that is destructive. Cheap holidays, cheap flights, cheap clothes, cheap goods,cheap food, cheap taxes. All part of a short-sighted outlook. We could start by refusing cheap flights and foreign holidays and spending that vast amount of money in the UK economy. Guess most will be too selfish though. In which case they have no cause to moan about the ramifications of their actions and selfishness.

Re: T. May the worst prime minister ever ? : Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:30 am  

Over the last few days plenty of information has been published to show that the public sector has not been affected as bad as the private sector. When the banks went pear shape thousands of people in the private sector lost jobs. Many people were forced to work shortened hours. Can't recall huge lay-offs in the public sector. As mentioned by other posters if you aren't happy with your job and conditions get another job. Something most people have done for years in the private sector.
Seems the unions and public sector workers want the best of both worlds, top wages plus job security. We all want that don't we unfortunately in the private sector it's not always available.

Re: T. May the worst prime minister ever ? : Tue Jul 04, 2017 9:16 am  

You have to admire the brass neck of people who suggest that Dr's, nurses, police officers and firefighters should work elsewhere if they don't like their T's and C's; the same people who will then moan when they can't get a GP appointment, be seen at hospital, or the police don't attend when they've been burgled; I do believe that arch Tory Sal, has complained about all three of those things on this very forum - but he blamed it on immigration and inefficiency, rather than chronic underfunding.

That we are even prepared to say out loud that if a nurse doesn't like the fact that s/he's had a significant real terms pay reduction over 7 years s/he should do something else, is a sad indictment of where the Tory ideology has taken us as a society; and if you needed any further proof that austerity was a choice rather than a necessity, look at the Tory MP's breaking ranks and calling for a reversal of the public sector pay freeze - the magic money tree has been located!

Re: T. May the worst prime minister ever ? : Tue Jul 04, 2017 9:50 am  

bren2k wrote:

You have to admire the brass neck of people who suggest that Dr's, nurses, police officers and firefighters should work elsewhere if they don't like their T's and C's; the same people who will then moan when they can't get a GP appointment, be seen at hospital, or the police don't attend when they've been burgled; I do believe that arch Tory Sal, has complained about all three of those things on this very forum - but he blamed it on immigration and inefficiency, rather than chronic underfunding.

That we are even prepared to say out loud that if a nurse doesn't like the fact that s/he's had a significant real terms pay reduction over 7 years s/he should do something else, is a sad indictment of where the Tory ideology has taken us as a society; and if you needed any further proof that austerity was a choice rather than a necessity, look at the Tory MP's breaking ranks and calling for a reversal of the public sector pay freeze - the magic money tree has been located!

Bang on the money

[Bullseye]

Re: T. May the worst prime minister ever ? : Tue Jul 04, 2017 10:20 am  

Not all things can be run at a profit and not all jobs can be done by just anyone. Nursing being a good example. Huge gains in productivity have been made in the NHS yet there have been no rewards passed onto staff.

Things like Forensic Science and the Probation Service were sold off and both have resulted in much worse services and scandals to emerge. Some things simply can't be run properly without making a loss.

Re: T. May the worst prime minister ever ? : Tue Jul 04, 2017 10:36 am  

A couple of interesting graphs from twitter today on real wage increases/decreases (2007-15):

Re: T. May the worst prime minister ever ? : Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:20 am  

Look at all those stupid countries, who deliver a socialistic model of government based on collectivism and equality, with their wage growth far outstripping ours; idiots.