Re: "freeDUMB day" : Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:19 pm  

mailman wrote:

I think Vallance quoted this at the press conference and then corrected himself later on Twitter saying it was 60% have not been fully vaccinated.

Yeah, his twitter username is @uksciencechief and he clarified it last night. On a related note @paulmainwood has done a thread to explain why this shows that the vaccine is working well. (Sorry can't link as using works laptop that blocks Twitter)

[Durham Giant]

Re: "freeDUMB day" : Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:32 pm  

Zoo Zoo Boom wrote: So as an employer what are you doing to keep your staff safe - because it doesn't appear to be working? You have always been sceptical of the vaccines - so your post simply backs up your earlier view point. Hospitalisations are very low as are deaths - what has changed since January to facilitate that? You are Mixing me up with someone else. I could not be more pro vaccine. But vaccines are not going to work by themselves. Masks in enclosed spaces , working from home got those that can. Not allowing free flow of people in and out of the UK are other things that should go hand in hand with it. . I have a friend working in Cambridge on vaccines and all he is working on is potential viruses that may break out of vaccine. It is those like yourself who either. Through libertarian principles, not understanding the science around vaccines , head in the sand dreamers or incompetent Tory cheerleaders who will be leading us back into a mess. Firstly no one knows how long vaccine protection lasts. This from Jerusalem The Covid vaccine may be losing its efficacy in older people, researchers in Israel have warned, as the Delta variant drives a growing fourth wave in the country. The monitoring team at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem reported that about 90 per cent of new confirmed cases in the over-fifties group were people who had been fully vaccinated. “It seems there’s a reduced efficiency of the vaccine, at least for part of the population,” the team said. The researchers added, however, that there is need for further analysis before any definite conclusion on the vaccine’s efficacy can be reached. Israel has been using the Pfizer BioNTech vaccine. Source. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/covi ... -g2td6qc60 Surely it would be prudent to maintain some bio security measures in place until we understand more about this ? Such as wearing masks in shops and on public transport. Or maybe await until people have had the booster ? Why open nightclubs now for everyone and then say you have to prove Covid free or vaccinated in September. ? At the current time every scientist in the world is watching Britain as a massive science experiment. Israel which opened up 3 weeks ago is now issuing restrictions again. As for my staff all the staff have full PPE on every visit. Mask visor gloves and apron Being part of the public sector and essential workers who have to do visits not much else I can do

Zoo Zoo Boom wrote: So as an employer what are you doing to keep your staff safe - because it doesn't appear to be working? You have always been sceptical of the vaccines - so your post simply backs up your earlier view point. Hospitalisations are very low as are deaths - what has changed since January to facilitate that? You are Mixing me up with someone else. I could not be more pro vaccine. But vaccines are not going to work by themselves. Masks in enclosed spaces , working from home got those that can. Not allowing free flow of people in and out of the UK are other things that should go hand in hand with it. . I have a friend working in Cambridge on vaccines and all he is working on is potential viruses that may break out of vaccine. It is those like yourself who either. Through libertarian principles, not understanding the science around vaccines , head in the sand dreamers or incompetent Tory cheerleaders who will be leading us back into a mess. Firstly no one knows how long vaccine protection lasts. This from Jerusalem The Covid vaccine may be losing its efficacy in older people, researchers in Israel have warned, as the Delta variant drives a growing fourth wave in the country. The monitoring team at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem reported that about 90 per cent of new confirmed cases in the over-fifties group were people who had been fully vaccinated. “It seems there’s a reduced efficiency of the vaccine, at least for part of the population,” the team said. The researchers added, however, that there is need for further analysis before any definite conclusion on the vaccine’s efficacy can be reached. Israel has been using the Pfizer BioNTech vaccine. Source. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/covi ... -g2td6qc60 Surely it would be prudent to maintain some bio security measures in place until we understand more about this ? Such as wearing masks in shops and on public transport. Or maybe await until people have had the booster ? Why open nightclubs now for everyone and then say you have to prove Covid free or vaccinated in September. ? At the current time every scientist in the world is watching Britain as a massive science experiment. Israel which opened up 3 weeks ago is now issuing restrictions again. As for my staff all the staff have full PPE on every visit. Mask visor gloves and apron Being part of the public sector and essential workers who have to do visits not much else I can do

Re: "freeDUMB day" : Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:33 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

How can you blame him for his staff being off ?

The NHS app has become a bit of a joke, with may people simply ignoring or deleting the app to avoid having to isolate and the lunacy of the situation is demonstrated pretty well with my lad and his pals.
My lad, in his early 20's got pinged a week ago after going for a pint in Leeds and is dutifully isolating.
However, the lad that he went to Leeds with, who doesn't have the NHS app is carrying on regardless, still socialising and going out when he wants.
The NHS app apparently is only for "guidance" and can be ignored

Of course the example set by Bojo, is subject to change, whenever he feels like it and with "freedom day" now upon us, should anyone actually be abiding by the app, especially if they have been double jabbed.
From August 16th, NHS staff will be told to ignore the ping, "to keep the hospitals running" and if ever there was a "safety furst" situation, surely, these are the very people who should NOT ignore the isolation "advice".

It's absolute madness

I am not blaming him - but if the work environment encourages the spread of the virus that is against H&S regs?

I agree completely the app is a joke - yes it is only for guidance - otherwise it would be compulsary. The issue is that we are hung up about the £37bn spent and then complain when it does what it was developed to do - go figure no bigger critic on T&T than yourself.

Johnson is deluded and he he will get a rude awakening soon enough but its typical of his lack of gravitas about anything - a more unfit person for high office doesn't exist.

What is the greater risk being treated by a hospital worker with a very low risk of having the virus or not getting treated at all because there is no service available

Re: "freeDUMB day" : Tue Jul 20, 2021 2:27 pm  

It’s not the fact that it now works but the time it took and the money wasted in doing so by Dido and her friends in government.

Re: "freeDUMB day" : Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:48 pm  

Durham Giant wrote: You are Mixing me up with someone else. I could not be more pro vaccine. But vaccines are not going to work by themselves. Masks in enclosed spaces , working from home got those that can. Not allowing free flow of people in and out of the UK are other things that should go hand in hand with it. . I have a friend working in Cambridge on vaccines and all he is working on is potential viruses that may break out of vaccine. It is those like yourself who either. Through libertarian principles, not understanding the science around vaccines , head in the sand dreamers or incompetent Tory cheerleaders who will be leading us back into a mess. Firstly no one knows how long vaccine protection lasts. This from Jerusalem The Covid vaccine may be losing its efficacy in older people, researchers in Israel have warned, as the Delta variant drives a growing fourth wave in the country. The monitoring team at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem reported that about 90 per cent of new confirmed cases in the over-fifties group were people who had been fully vaccinated. “It seems there’s a reduced efficiency of the vaccine, at least for part of the population,” the team said. The researchers added, however, that there is need for further analysis before any definite conclusion on the vaccine’s efficacy can be reached. Israel has been using the Pfizer BioNTech vaccine. Source. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/covi ... -g2td6qc60 Surely it would be prudent to maintain some bio security measures in place until we understand more about this ? Such as wearing masks in shops and on public transport. Or maybe await until people have had the booster ? Why open nightclubs now for everyone and then say you have to prove Covid free or vaccinated in September. ? At the current time every scientist in the world is watching Britain as a massive science experiment. Israel which opened up 3 weeks ago is now issuing restrictions again. As for my staff all the staff have full PPE on every visit. Mask visor gloves and apron Being part of the public sector and essential workers who have to do visits not much else I can do What's really thrown a spanner in the works is the R0 of the Delta variant. It's up around 8 at the highest value I've seen, compared to the UK variant (which rapidly outcompeted the Wuhan variant) which is 2-3. It's spreading like wildfire amongst young unvaccinated people who really could have been vaccinated before restrictions were lifted. My guess is that the strategy here is to let the disease run it's course through the unvaccinated youth and combine that disease acquired immunity with the vaccine immunity to protect everyone. But I can't help thinking that we were so close to doing the job properly but to not react to the R0 of Delta is a huge miscalculation. This feels very much like a political decision, or one made by scientists who have been under immense pressure for 18 months solid to walk a tightrope.

Durham Giant wrote: You are Mixing me up with someone else. I could not be more pro vaccine. But vaccines are not going to work by themselves. Masks in enclosed spaces , working from home got those that can. Not allowing free flow of people in and out of the UK are other things that should go hand in hand with it. . I have a friend working in Cambridge on vaccines and all he is working on is potential viruses that may break out of vaccine. It is those like yourself who either. Through libertarian principles, not understanding the science around vaccines , head in the sand dreamers or incompetent Tory cheerleaders who will be leading us back into a mess. Firstly no one knows how long vaccine protection lasts. This from Jerusalem The Covid vaccine may be losing its efficacy in older people, researchers in Israel have warned, as the Delta variant drives a growing fourth wave in the country. The monitoring team at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem reported that about 90 per cent of new confirmed cases in the over-fifties group were people who had been fully vaccinated. “It seems there’s a reduced efficiency of the vaccine, at least for part of the population,” the team said. The researchers added, however, that there is need for further analysis before any definite conclusion on the vaccine’s efficacy can be reached. Israel has been using the Pfizer BioNTech vaccine. Source. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/covi ... -g2td6qc60 Surely it would be prudent to maintain some bio security measures in place until we understand more about this ? Such as wearing masks in shops and on public transport. Or maybe await until people have had the booster ? Why open nightclubs now for everyone and then say you have to prove Covid free or vaccinated in September. ? At the current time every scientist in the world is watching Britain as a massive science experiment. Israel which opened up 3 weeks ago is now issuing restrictions again. As for my staff all the staff have full PPE on every visit. Mask visor gloves and apron Being part of the public sector and essential workers who have to do visits not much else I can do What's really thrown a spanner in the works is the R0 of the Delta variant. It's up around 8 at the highest value I've seen, compared to the UK variant (which rapidly outcompeted the Wuhan variant) which is 2-3. It's spreading like wildfire amongst young unvaccinated people who really could have been vaccinated before restrictions were lifted. My guess is that the strategy here is to let the disease run it's course through the unvaccinated youth and combine that disease acquired immunity with the vaccine immunity to protect everyone. But I can't help thinking that we were so close to doing the job properly but to not react to the R0 of Delta is a huge miscalculation. This feels very much like a political decision, or one made by scientists who have been under immense pressure for 18 months solid to walk a tightrope.

[Durham Giant]

Re: "freeDUMB day" : Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:05 pm  

DHM wrote:

What's really thrown a spanner in the works is the R0 of the Delta variant. It's up around 8 at the highest value I've seen, compared to the UK variant (which rapidly outcompeted the Wuhan variant) which is 2-3. It's spreading like wildfire amongst young unvaccinated people who really could have been vaccinated before restrictions were lifted. My guess is that the strategy here is to let the disease run it's course through the unvaccinated youth and combine that disease acquired immunity with the vaccine immunity to protect everyone. But I can't help thinking that we were so close to doing the job properly but to not react to the R0 of Delta is a huge miscalculation. This feels very much like a political decision, or one made by scientists who have been under immense pressure for 18 months solid to walk a tightrope.

I agree with your post completely. The plan here is immunity with a combination of the old being vaccinated and the young infected but it is such a massive gamble but because the RO is so high so many people will be infected at one time potentially 100,000 per day it will cause absolute mayhem with lots of people probably dying unnecessarily and lots of young people being left with potential lifelong health problems.

There is still so much we don’t know about this virus that everything is a gamble. This is not one I agree with.

You obviously know a lot about the medical side of things but one thing that alarmed me is the fact that Covid has developed from something with an Ro rate of 1 to 2 to the new level of 8. On that trajectory it could get up to the same levels of virulence as measles which is 14 as new variations develop.


If we end up with a new variation as a result of this going wrong I would hope everyone starts calling it the Boris variant

Re: "freeDUMB day" : Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:30 am  

Durham Giant wrote:

I agree with your post completely. The plan here is immunity with a combination of the old being vaccinated and the young infected but it is such a massive gamble but because the RO is so high so many people will be infected at one time potentially 100,000 per day it will cause absolute mayhem with lots of people probably dying unnecessarily and lots of young people being left with potential lifelong health problems.

There is still so much we don’t know about this virus that everything is a gamble. This is not one I agree with.

You obviously know a lot about the medical side of things but one thing that alarmed me is the fact that Covid has developed from something with an Ro rate of 1 to 2 to the new level of 8. On that trajectory it could get up to the same levels of virulence as measles which is 14 as new variations develop.


If we end up with a new variation as a result of this going wrong I would hope everyone starts calling it the Boris variant

I worry that we (UK) are now radically out of step with the rest of the world. I want to travel, it's a huge part of my job, my team is spread over Europe, China and Japan and I haven't been able to work with them in person for nearly 2 years. We can't exist in isolation and we are effectively self isolating the whole of the UK.

Re: "freeDUMB day" : Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:05 am  

DHM wrote:

What's really thrown a spanner in the works is the R0 of the Delta variant. It's up around 8 at the highest value I've seen, compared to the UK variant (which rapidly outcompeted the Wuhan variant) which is 2-3. It's spreading like wildfire amongst young unvaccinated people who really could have been vaccinated before restrictions were lifted. My guess is that the strategy here is to let the disease run it's course through the unvaccinated youth and combine that disease acquired immunity with the vaccine immunity to protect everyone. But I can't help thinking that we were so close to doing the job properly but to not react to the R0 of Delta is a huge miscalculation. This feels very much like a political decision, or one made by scientists who have been under immense pressure for 18 months solid to walk a tightrope.

The problem you have is the young don't see the benefit of the vaccination and they have been scared off by all the doom mongerers about negative impacts of having the vaccination esp. Astra Zenica. If you are only going to suffer mild symptoms why bother? There are 3m unvaccinated - we did 18k on Sunday - at that rate it would take 6 months to vaccinate all the young.

So what is your strategy then - delay opening up for what, wait for the boosters - it will be Spring next year before there is another reasonable window.

Re: "freeDUMB day" : Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:16 am  

DHM wrote:

I worry that we (UK) are now radically out of step with the rest of the world.

We've been sliding in that direction for the best part of 2 decades IMO

Re: "freeDUMB day" : Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:56 am  

I think the change to the track and trace quarantine rules were announced without much thought which is unusual for Johnson. The first suggestion was that certain employees of what is considered vital trades do not need to quarantine if pinged. This was then changed to require each employer to apply to the government to have a specific employee exempt. I wonder how that is going to work because I am sure the government have nothing in place and why bother because everything changes again on the 16th.