Re: Brexit Anyone? : Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:29 pm  

King Street Cat wrote:

But what would have happened had the referendum thrown up a reverse result where 52% voted to remain? Would everyone be carrying on regardless like there weren't any problems in the first place? Clearly there are problems and they're not going to go away any time soon.

There are problems with the EU, no doubt about it but, when the campaigning is done in the way that Farage went about it.
Saying how "worried he would be if a group of Romanians moved in next door" and blaming the EU for the UK immigration "crisis", he managed to simply ignore (or forget) the 250,000 people that come to the UK from outside the EU, who we already have "control" over.
Things generally aer going to get ugly in the EU as some of the other nations try and tackle the conundrum of free movement which, right now is, just impractical and further exasperated by the situation in the middle east, which the UK helped create.

Re: Brexit Anyone? : Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:47 pm  

Certainly, the symptoms are there, but is the cure for them an EU exit?

Yes according to the majority of those that voted. It's as black and white as that. Maybe a failure in the yes/no referendum approach. Could we have had more options?

Re: Brexit Anyone? : Wed Dec 07, 2016 5:16 pm  

wire-quin wrote:

Yes according to the majority of those that voted. It's as black and white as that. Maybe a failure in the yes/no referendum approach. Could we have had more options?

Yep, our leaving the E.U. will cure all the problems of the disaffected at some point in the rosie new dawn.

I think the number of options was plenty, considering the amount of mentally challenged people who managed to tick a box.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone? : Sat Dec 10, 2016 10:01 pm  

I have an opinion on what our negotiation aims should be.

But a few months on I have literally no clue what they will be. Not even in the broadest outline. Now I appreciate the difficulty and complexity of the situation, and that Leave represented an end, rather than a specific new direction, but really... no signals, no coherent messages at all?

The 'playing cards close to the chest', and 'red, white and blue Brexit' stuff - Andrea Leadsom (sp?) got slated for that sort of poop, during their leadership campaign. And it stinks of bluff, of desperately trying to buy time, from a PM with no realistic options that will please a majority of her electorate. I think it might be an insoluble problem. Somebody at some point will have make a decision and whatever it is, it'll be political suicide.

Re: Brexit Anyone? : Sat Dec 10, 2016 10:08 pm  

We've seen very worrying things happening surrounding the whole Brexit issue.

- A demonisation and belittling of immigrants
- A demonisation and belittling of other minorities
- Unprecedented attacks on the courts and judges by the media and by government and some politicians
- an unwillingness of most media and politicians to stand up for anything except what they perceive to be the "majority" view.
- an apparent willingness to allow government to take away people's rights and laws without votes in parliament.

Regardless of what anyone's view on whether we should be in the EU or not (personally I think we should be in but leading the change to the EU such as limiting membership of certain nations until they're sufficiently developed economically) these kind of things should worry anybody. They do not bode well for the future.

Re: Brexit Anyone? : Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:27 am  

Racism has been alive and kicking in this country it is no worse since the vote than it was before a few isolated cases make it bit more visible.

Why shouldn't the judges be criticised are they above it? Plenty of press calling when EU law was used to prevent Abu from extradition.

The quality of MPs is at an all time low and the public are not fools - they don't want to be told what is best for them by a bunch self interested incompetents with very questionable behaviours.

Corbyn is prepared to go against the flow the fact his ideas are barmy is besides the point.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone? : Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:22 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Racism has been alive and kicking in this country it is no worse since the vote than it was before a few isolated cases make it bit more visible.

Why shouldn't the judges be criticised are they above it? Plenty of press calling when EU law was used to prevent Abu from extradition.

The quality of MPs is at an all time low and the public are not fools - they don't want to be told what is best for them by a bunch self interested incompetents with very questionable behaviours.

Corbyn is prepared to go against the flow the fact his ideas are barmy is besides the point.

There are two problems with that criticism of the judges, imo.

Firstly, a good deal of it was personal rather than based on the legal correctness of decision. Even if we assume that being in public life makes somebody fair game, then at best these members of the press were missing the point. If the press think the law is bad, as many did with the EU extradition thing, criticisize the law not the judges. Of course, if they think the law had been poorly interpreted that's a different matter, but I didn't see that argument, so presumably it was weak. Or chucking vitriol is easier and shifts more copies.

Secondly, an independent judiciary is bound is by the law, not (directly) the will of the people. Democracy isn't a trump card in all constitutional matters.

That many judges are over privileged wazzocks, I'd accept. But that doesn't necessarily make their decisions wrong.

Re: Brexit Anyone? : Sun Dec 11, 2016 2:22 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Racism has been alive and kicking in this country it is no worse since the vote than it was before a few isolated cases make it bit more visible.

Why shouldn't the judges be criticised are they above it? Plenty of press calling when EU law was used to prevent Abu from extradition.

The quality of MPs is at an all time low and the public are not fools - they don't want to be told what is best for them by a bunch self interested incompetents with very questionable behaviours.

Corbyn is prepared to go against the flow the fact his ideas are barmy is besides the point.

Your first point is utter nonesense.

There has been a huge change in attitudes, both during and post referendum and to brush the increase in racist comments aside as "isolated cases" is quite worrying in itself.
The whole tone used by Farage was divisive and bordering on racist, indeed, he has apologised for some of his own comments, for being over the top.
Whilst all of the mud slinging during the campaign may make decent newspaper headlines, we all have to move on and live together after the dust has settled and this has been made far more difficult over the past 6 month or so.
Unless you are one the many people at the sharp end of the comments, it's difficult to know exactly what it is like to be an immigrant in the UK.
Regarding the Judges, of course it's ok to question them but, they rule on points of law and they are and have to be outside the political world.
The British press are the main protagonists of our brave new world. However, unfortunately, there is so much bias, both in the manner which they report the new and the agenda that their owners are working towards that, most of the news, reported in the daily papers is nothing more than their personal propaganda.

Re: Brexit Anyone? : Sun Dec 11, 2016 6:02 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Racism has been alive and kicking in this country it is no worse since the vote than it was before a few isolated cases make it bit more visible.

Hate crimes rose by 41% the month after Brexit.

Sal Paradise wrote:

Why shouldn't the judges be criticised are they above it? Plenty of press calling when EU law was used to prevent Abu from extradition.

The Daily Mail were calling the three High Court Judges enemies of the people.

Sal Paradise wrote:

The quality of MPs is at an all time low and the public are not fools - they don't want to be told what is best for them by a bunch self interested incompetents with very questionable behaviours.

Corbyn is prepared to go against the flow the fact his ideas are barmy is besides the point.

The quality of our M.P's & the Labour leaders views are surely irrelevant as to whether we leave the E.U or not?

Re: Brexit Anyone? : Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:10 am  

The Devil's Advocate wrote:

Hate crimes rose by 41% the month after Brexit.

The Daily Mail were calling the three High Court Judges enemies of the people.

The quality of our M.P's & the Labour leaders views are surely irrelevant as to whether we leave the E.U or not?

We don't hear much about it now - race violence seems to have returned to usual levels. I would suggest there is significant amounts of inter-immigrant violence - how much of that was in your 41%

The quality of the MPs has everything to do with us leaving the EU - the vote was as much a protest vote against the establishment as anything. You have arrogant Labour MPs David Lamy who has come out and said he knows best, can the vote. No wonder these guys are so despised.

The majority of those who voted wanted us to leave the EU if that doesn't happen on a technicality of the law then democracy will take a blow and it eventually back fire.