Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:16 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

The thing with the whole Brexit negotiations is that it will only come together at the last minute and it's difficult to read exactly what is going on.
Much of the "noise" from both sides is political posturing with bluff and counter bluff.
The one certainty is that we would have been far better placed working out our aims before negotiations started.
It's bloody ridiculous that the cabinet only worked out it's plan Chequers a few weeks ago, over 2 years since the referendum and all because Mr Cameron was so arrogant as to believe that the UK would vote "remain".
They should have had a plan for both outcomes.

The problem of course, is that the whole thing has been a proxy for the internecine battels within the Conservative party - which has meant that rather than prepare for the negotiations, a lot of time has been wasted on internal party politics.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:50 pm  

bren2k wrote:

The problem of course, is that the whole thing has been a proxy for the internecine battels within the Conservative party - which has meant that rather than prepare for the negotiations, a lot of time has been wasted on internal party politics.

Indeed and it's still on going.
Remember Mrs May's mantra "strong & stable", what a load of nonsense.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:27 am  

As an ex-pat who has no real interest in the results of this fiasco (other than the sale of my last property in London before it happens), here's my tenpenneth's worth.

The majority....as in the most people who voted, who voted leave voted that way due to a heavy media bias, latent racism, anti-muslim rhetoric, false claims about revenue to the EU and basically because they were swept along on a jingoistic wave of Rule Britannia.
The Minority...as in the fewer people who voted remain did so because they didn't really want change, didn't believe the lies and were slightly ashamed of some of the rhetoric from the right waving Union flags, but most of all liked their lives and were't going to be fooled in blaming the state of the economy on johnny foreigner.

Now......fast forward 2 years and
a/ if the second vote happens, the "winners" will still all pretty much still vote the same way, but the losers will be out in twice the numbers, so Leave will lose by 2/1......and you'll be as close to a Civil War in Britain as you could ever imagine.
or
b/ if the Tories drive the bus over the cliff, then by the time the damage is undone to the UK economy, we'll all be pushing up daisys, as will our kids, their kids and probably their after them.

The solution? I hear Canada is quite a nice place to live...

[Bullseye]

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:39 am  

Any room in New Zealand?

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:31 am  

Presumably they have no problem taking middle aged white people?

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:40 pm  

bren2k wrote:

The problem of course, is that the whole thing has been a proxy for the internecine battels within the Conservative party - which has meant that rather than prepare for the negotiations, a lot of time has been wasted on internal party politics.

Correct, once ‘we’ voted to leave be that rightly or wrongly, and whether the MP’s agreed with it or not they were elected and have a duty to represent the people, they should be doing their upmost to assist in obtaining the best possible Brexit for the Britain. If for whatever reasons they feel they can’t do that then there are other careers available.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:47 pm  

glow wrote:

Correct, once ‘we’ voted to leave be that rightly or wrongly, and whether the MP’s agreed with it or not they were elected and have a duty to represent the people, they should be doing their upmost to assist in obtaining the best possible Brexit for the Britain. If for whatever reasons they feel they can’t do that then there are other careers available.

It's a fair point - but with such a close result and 'the people' being virtually split down the middle, that's quite an ask; no matter your position, half of your constituents will feel you're not representing their views. Not to mention that overwhelming evidence that has since emerged that the referendum result was secured through dishonesty and illegal practices. On that basis, I'm fairly relaxed about some MP's opposing Brexit - it could be argued that its the more democratic attitude.

And that's quite aside from the fact that there is no such thing as a good Brexit - let alone the land of milk and honey that various charlatans talked about 2 years ago.

I'd be quite happy to see the whole thing reset and a new vote held, based on the information that has since become available; it seems reasonable and entirely democratic to put the deal, or lack of, to the people, together with an option to remain, and ask them again.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:02 pm  

bren2k wrote:

It's a fair point - but with such a close result and 'the people' being virtually split down the middle, that's quite an ask; no matter your position, half of your constituents will feel you're not representing their views. Not to mention that overwhelming evidence that has since emerged that the referendum result was secured through dishonesty and illegal practices. On that basis, I'm fairly relaxed about some MP's opposing Brexit - it could be argued that its the more democratic attitude.

And that's quite aside from the fact that there is no such thing as a good Brexit - let alone the land of milk and honey that various charlatans talked about 2 years ago.

I'd be quite happy to see the whole thing reset and a new vote held, based on the information that has since become available; it seems reasonable and entirely democratic to put the deal, or lack of, to the people, together with an option to remain, and ask them again.

As you know from the tone of my (many) posts, I voted remain and was as hacked of an anyone with the lies and deceit during the campaign, especially from the leave side.
However, much as the thought of being outside the EU is a worry and my personal fears for the economy are closer to the cliff edge than some kind of economic miracle (whereby we achieve some growth in our economy post Brexit), unless there was a second vote, with a landslide majority in either direction (and I dont believe this will be the case), nobody will be satisfied with the result and the "losing" side will want to push for some kind of "3rd time lucky" vote.

Again, much as it goes against my personal preferences, the government, along with the leave supporters should have got on with exiting the EU and if this meant a hard border between N. Ireland and Eire, then so be it.

We (the UK) are allowing The EU to call all of the shots and we will be so far from any kind of "good" deal, it's just criminal.
However a second or third vote wont help and the uncertainty within business is not helping anyone.

Unfortunately Cameron and May between them have made a right royal mess of the whole thing and we will all have the "pleasure" of dealing with the fallout.

[Bullseye]

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:13 pm  

Hard border in Ireland would mean a return to the troubles within months. That's a price to high to pay.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:17 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

the government, along with the leave supporters should have got on with exiting the EU and if this meant a hard border between N. Ireland and Eire, then so be it

Sorry Wrencat, but that's a ridiculously trite way to dismiss the prospect of a return to conflict in NI - which is what would happen if a hard border was implemented.

The "just get on with it" argument is childishly simplistic - and if the past 2 years have taught anyone anything, it's that there wasn't and never will be a straightforward way to leave the EU; something which the dullards who promoted it appear to have wilfully misunderstood.