Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sun Nov 17, 2019 6:56 pm  

The Ghost of '99 wrote:

Yet again you repeat this rubbish. They are all countries which have seen huge economic growth in international trade and in living standards and prosperity since joining the EU.

It's like climate change deniers conflating climate with the weather.

You really are delusional - in Spain youth unemployment is 33% - Italy and Greece are virtually bankrupt and both have had very tough economic guidelines set on them by the EU - to a point where it has brought governments down in both countries.

Being a member of the EU isn't a one stop shop to prosperity - who is to say that these countries could have grown just as much outside of the EU?

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:01 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

You really are delusional - in Spain youth unemployment is 33% - Italy and Greece are virtually bankrupt and both have had very tough economic guidelines set on them by the EU - to a point where it has brought governments down in both countries.

Being a member of the EU isn't a one stop shop to prosperity - who is to say that these countries could have grown just as much outside of the EU?

Italy (primarily due to corruption) and Greece have been economic "basket cases" for as far back as I can remember and without the strict rules set out by the EU they would have fallen further and further down the pile.
Left to their own devices they would have kept on devaluing their currency and possibly ended up with an ecconomy similar to Zimbabwe.
For all of the constraints put on them through their EU membership, I would suggest thet, despite their high youth unemployment, they would be in a far worse state than they currently are.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:57 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Italy (primarily due to corruption) and Greece have been economic "basket cases" for as far back as I can remember and without the strict rules set out by the EU they would have fallen further and further down the pile.
Left to their own devices they would have kept on devaluing their currency and possibly ended up with an ecconomy similar to Zimbabwe.
For all of the constraints put on them through their EU membership, I would suggest thet, despite their high youth unemployment, they would be in a far worse state than they currently are.

What makes you say that? It is very unlikely any country in Europe will end up like Zimbabwe - in or out of the EU. Africa has some challenges that are particular to that continent.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:04 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

What makes you say that? It is very unlikely any country in Europe will end up like Zimbabwe - in or out of the EU. Africa has some challenges that are particular to that continent.

What make me say that (make a direct comparison between Italy/Greece and Zimbabwe) is the regular devaluation of currency, coupled with government's who "aren't the best" at collecting tax revenues, leading to further devaluation of currency and so on and so on.
You may not remember the days of becoming a "lira millionaire" , such was the state of Italy's own currency.
My point here being that, outside of a more financially controlled environment, both of these nations would be significantly behind where they are now.
FWIW, I believe that Italy has the potential to be a reasonably wealthy nation but, perhaps needs stronger government, Greece on the other hand is a vision of what an independent Scotland may look like.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:58 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

What make me say that (make a direct comparison between Italy/Greece and Zimbabwe) is the regular devaluation of currency, coupled with government's who "aren't the best" at collecting tax revenues, leading to further devaluation of currency and so on and so on.
You may not remember the days of becoming a "lira millionaire" , such was the state of Italy's own currency.
My point here being that, outside of a more financially controlled environment, both of these nations would be significantly behind where they are now.
FWIW, I believe that Italy has the potential to be a reasonably wealthy nation but, perhaps needs stronger government, Greece on the other hand is a vision of what an independent Scotland may look like.

Agreed - good points

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:56 am  

After reading Chancellor Sajid Javid's comments this morning, I decided to resurrect this thread.

At least he's now telling us that there will be winners and losers.
However, the comment that really got me was him telling us that "companies need to be prepared".
Unfortunately, despite being 3 years down the track, NOBODY knows what Brexit will look like.

Personally, I think we will be out with no deal at the end of the year and already, Javid has said that we will no longer be aligning ourselves to EU rules and regs, which will make life very interesting for 1000's of manufacturers and suppliers both to and from the EU and you have to wonder what he has in mind.

Also, he is promising growth of 2.7 /2.8% next year, almost double the BoE forecast, which based on recent figures looks extremely optimistic.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:55 am  

On a lighter note, I was wondering whether the contributors on here were planning anything on the 31st?

Maybe you’ll raise a glass to our new un-told freedom, or perhaps you’re digging out the crack pipe to dampen the despair?

Personally I think I’ll give all news feeds a miss on the day. I couldn’t bear to see the likes of Farage, Francois, Et al grinning all over the T.V.

So, what will it be, celebration, wake, or total indifference?

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:53 pm  

The Devil's Advocate wrote:

On a lighter note, I was wondering whether the contributors on here were planning anything on the 31st?

Maybe you’ll raise a glass to our new un-told freedom, or perhaps you’re digging out the crack pipe to dampen the despair?

Personally I think I’ll give all news feeds a miss on the day. I couldn’t bear to see the likes of Farage, Francois, Et al grinning all over the T.V.

So, what will it be, celebration, wake, or total indifference?

Ateotd it is only the EU, a fairly distant entity that had limited noticeable impact on my day to day life. Happy to move on and let the winners have their prize.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:46 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

After reading Chancellor Sajid Javid's comments this morning, I decided to resurrect this thread.

At least he's now telling us that there will be winners and losers.
However, the comment that really got me was him telling us that "companies need to be prepared".
Unfortunately, despite being 3 years down the track, NOBODY knows what Brexit will look like.

The most noticeable difference for me between the Johnson government and the Cameron/May governments (and any Tory government before!) is the overt detachment from the government to the business community. The rhetoric (in line with Boris' earlier "feck business" quote) has for the first time become hostile to businesses. Andrea Leadsome has ended her weekly meetings with representatives of the business community as she's unhappy that they are not supportive enough of the government's approach on Brexit. Sajid is now saying "well they've had 3 years to get ready for Brexit".

Now, I expect there will still be certain businesses who have the government's ear - those owned by donors to the Conservative party and large employers in marginal constituencies - but the change now is the government's detachment to the representatives of the business community in general, eg the CBI, Federation for Small Businesses, and industry groups. It's very un-Conservative and reflects a shift away from the Conservatives being the 'party of business' to being a nationalist-populist group looking to cement its support in socially conservative communities, based on looking tough on Europe, crime and immigration.

While Labour were led by Corbyn, they could also enjoy the residual support of even businesses that were unsettled at the Tory approach, because they feared a Corbyn government. If Starmer or maybe Jess Phillips were to win the Labour leadership and position Labour more as a centre-left social democrat party going towards Blair territory, it would likely swing the business community behind Labour. That would be a blow to Johnson. He won't mind now, in fact they could just be another enemy to take on as part of the 'establishment', and he could try to appeal to ex Labour voters by saying "we're the party of people not business", but when the economy starts to turn and unemployment rises, if the business community lines up with the opposition you have a problem.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (part 4) : Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:51 pm  

Sadly, whilst theres a reasonable awareness on social media of the impending disaster called Brexit, much of the MSM continues with the usual propaganda. I assume similar news control systems are put in place in most corrupt and failing societies.