Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:49 pm  

tigertot wrote:

I believe China & EU trade 1 Billion Euros worth a day. Trade deals can take 10 years to negotiate. Can you explain why China will give better deals with a desperate little cold island stuck out in the North Sea?

The starting point is we currently have a deal, are we both happy to continue with this as it is, whilst we discuss an improved deal as we are no longer restricted to none EU trading regulations

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:12 pm  

Cronus wrote:

As a fairly senior person at VW/Bentley said to me at their Crewe plant a while ago, if there are damaging tariffs in place that will impact sales vs other manufacturers who are already well established in the UK, the simple solution is to establish end-to-end supply chains in the UK and build their cars here.

No tariffs and more jobs. Wonderful.

We had the same said to us, most of the car plants although expecting an initial down turn are also looking to change their production lines to accommodate more than one vehicle type, we could of course lose some LH drive vehicle production to EU Plants

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:21 pm  

glow wrote:

I didn’t I voted to stay.

It was a collective "YOU" rather than just your good self.

Cronus wrote:

Well done on rolling out all the cliches.

I voted out because as even the most ardent Remainer will admit, the EU needs significant reform. Most sensible Remainers will admit freedom of movement is a bonkers idea and the protectionist nature of the Customs Union/Single Market has its faults, and the ultimate goal of the EU is highly questionable.

The key problem is that the EU simply WILL NOT CHANGE.

We're dealing with a leadership group of mostly Germanics who all blindly adhere to the ideology of ever closer union across every facet of our lives, and simply will not admit change is needed. As even the many Germans I work with will admit, a Germanic admitting they might be wrong is as rare as hen's teeth. Cameron did his best, other nations have pleaded for reform - but it won't happen.

Make no mistake - they want a Federal Europe, an EU Army, absolute political and economic union and more and more countries in the cartel. Turkey will join eventually, although that's been put back a decade or two thanks to Erdogan. They don't believe in the nation state or national identity and don't care about the damage done on the road to their goal, or the fact that their blanket economic ideology, freedom of movement and the Euro across such disparate countries was never going to work and has done untold damage to the Mediterranean nations, resulting in mass uncontrolled migration from Southern and Eastern Europe to the UK, France, the Germanic areas and Scandinavia. And people still think this is a good thing.

The EU have predictably played hardball and shown their true colours many times during the Brexit process - partly due to its clunky inflexible structure, but also due to the nature of its leaders. I've always been confident of a deal to the benefit of all parties, but I'll admit I have doubts given the EU's refusal to move on many issues. So be it, if it's a no deal, life goes on. I'd sooner be out.

As I've said all along, either way we'll be in for short-term pain for long-term gain. Our economy will take a hit but as any sensible economist will tell you - economies are flexible and ours will bounce back. We've been through some awful recessions, one of the worst being since 2007, and we bounce back each and every time.

The first part of your post basically defined jingoistic ideals and nationalism, with a hint of "mass immigration" thrown in. The concept of a number of different states or countries combining is nothing new in History, with the USA and Italy 2 that spring to mind, but that's a red herring, because what you don't like about the EU is that Britain isn't in charge and the others can "gang up on you".
This argument can be done to death, but basically being told what to do by Germas and letting Eastern European foreigners compete for jobs across borders doesn't sit well with you.....whether you admit/see it or not, that's a pretty modern take on "no blacks, no dogs, no Irish" as well as a similar stance as to the "rivers of blood" rhetoric of the 60's and 70's.

The economy will take a hit, that's for sure and I would predict that it will take more than a generation or it to even start to recover.

21.5 million (70%) of the tourists who visit Britain each year come from the EU countries........throw up your border checks and watch that drop.

250,000 SME's in the UK ship product to the EU.....throw on WTO tariffs, as well as cost for Customs agents, cross border shipping costs and all the other associated stuff that they'll have to do and you'll drive many of them to the wall. Then you have to negotiate with countries individually......the "collective" deal that the EU gets at present will not be mirrored when the UK does business......so the deals will be worse...and currently The UK split their trade 55% with the rest of the world and 45% with the EU......and the 55% part will take decades to get any sort of agreements sorted.

The 2 fastest growing economies in the world are China and India......they are exporters of pretty much everything the UK manufactures, but they do it bigger and faster and cheaper....a lot cheaper. Trump has the largest economy on the planet and he's hurting with the trade war with china....cheap is the future,so by all means reopen the mines, produce more steel, but nobody care's about quality like they did back in the 50's......so British Made products will have to be competitively priced.

Have you seen Nigel Farrage's Facebook Poll? He reckons a 2nd vote would still say "leave" and has said as much......it's not gone too well for him, has it


The reality is that the vast majority of those who voted for Brexit, didn't know what Brexit was. To expect the country to pull out of the EU based on an election where all parties lied and the winners overspent and were prosecuted for it is insanity. Brexit, whichever one you get, isn't going to be the one most people who voted for it wanted. The Irish border issue is just an example of the sheer cost of this to the UK and the #1 cross border activity will become smuggling......we were very adept at it last time there was a hard border with NI
October 18th. There needs to be an agreement on the Border, the Cash Settlement and the rights of each parties citizens.......if that passes without those 3 then you get your Hard Brexit......and the Dark Ages (and 2007) will seem like disneyland for the working classes of the UK

I'll leave you with this. Jacob Rees-Mogg or Boris Johnson will lead the country by the time you leave.........these are the types of politician that closed the Mines, tried to abolish trade Unions, sold the "family jewels" through Privatisation and who have let the NHS fall into a coma through lack of investment and the only people not to suffer are the Wealthy.....do you really think that anything will change other than the workers will work harder for less and probably on 0 hour contracts whilst the wealthy will get richer?

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:58 pm  

Call Me God wrote:

The first part of your post basically defined jingoistic ideals and nationalism, with a hint of "mass immigration" thrown in. The concept of a number of different states or countries combining is nothing new in History, with the USA and Italy 2 that spring to mind, but that's a red herring, because what you don't like about the EU is that Britain isn't in charge and the others can "gang up on you".
This argument can be done to death, but basically being told what to do by Germas and letting Eastern European foreigners compete for jobs across borders doesn't sit well with you.....whether you admit/see it or not, that's a pretty modern take on "no blacks, no dogs, no Irish" as well as a similar stance as to the "rivers of blood" rhetoric of the 60's and 70's.

Hmmm. Which part of 'The EU needs reform' defines jingoistic ideals and nationalism?

Well done, you managed to roll out even more cliches though. Here's a helpful tip: being critical of freedom of movement does not equal xenophobia. As I've said over and over on here - it's nothing more than a numbers game. Far too many, far too quickly. And that's before we get on to topics such as accelerating population growth due to much higher birth rates among immigrants.

I don't actually care who 'tells us what to do', as long as it's for the best and they are willing to listen to concerns. The EU enforces its ideals only for itself, with little regard for the economic or social chaos it creates. Woe betide anyone criticising their little project.

And the point you deliberately miss about Germanics running the EU is that they are utterly indoctrinated into the EU ideology and simply will not budge. Have you ever worked with Germans? I have, for many years. They do not like dissent, or admitting they could be even partially wrong. I've seen large portions of many budgets lost due to that trait. Nothing jingoistic about it, simply a weakness (and a danger) of EU leadership. The EU has been a disaster for many EU members, that's a simple fact.

The economy will take a hit, that's for sure and I would predict that it will take more than a generation or it to even start to recover.

But recover it will. Free of a federal EU and their idiotic ideology.

21.5 million (70%) of the tourists who visit Britain each year come from the EU countries........throw up your border checks and watch that drop.

What, are we carrying out body searches on every EU citizen? Don't be stupid, how do non-EU citizens enter the UK right now? Pretty easily for the most. At worst our EU neighbours with such close socio-economic ties might have to carry out an online tick-box exercise to obtain what could loosely be termed a 'visa'. Of course EU tourist numbers will probably drop marginally (remembering that many tourists are not tourists by our usual definition), but really, what on earth is your point here?

You probably also believe all EU-UK flights will be grounded in a few months.

250,000 SME's in the UK ship product to the EU.....throw on WTO tariffs, as well as cost for Customs agents, cross border shipping costs and all the other associated stuff that they'll have to do and you'll drive many of them to the wall. Then you have to negotiate with countries individually......the "collective" deal that the EU gets at present will not be mirrored when the UK does business......so the deals will be worse...and currently The UK split their trade 55% with the rest of the world and 45% with the EU......and the 55% part will take decades to get any sort of agreements sorted.

Only 5-8% of UK businesses export to the EU, 200,000 businesses at very most. If necessary the better businesses will adapt, seek out new markets, new clients, new supply chains. Some might fall by the way. Unless a company is 100% reliant on low-margin EU trade, there is room to adapt.

BTW, for decades the RoW 55% has been growing while the EU 45% has been shrinking. You talk about the future? There it is.

The 2 fastest growing economies in the world are China and India......they are exporters of pretty much everything the UK manufactures, but they do it bigger and faster and cheaper....a lot cheaper. Trump has the largest economy on the planet and he's hurting with the trade war with china....cheap is the future,so by all means reopen the mines, produce more steel, but nobody care's about quality like they did back in the 50's......so British Made products will have to be competitively priced.

And the same applies to the EU, in fact everyone. Not having 28 countries nit-picking over every detail means we can reach agreements far more quickly than the EU ever has. The fine detail of EU negotiations are often farcical, which is why they take so long.

Cheap isn't always the future. Ask the construction industry - it's well known buying Chinese steel is a recipe for disaster. The same applies across many industries...buying Chinese is often a false economy.

Have you seen Nigel Farrage's Facebook Poll? He reckons a 2nd vote would still say "leave" and has said as much......it's not gone too well for him, has it

Nope, I don't follow Mr Farage. But tell me, how did the polls predict Brexit and indeed the 2010 election?

The reality is that the vast majority of those who voted for Brexit, didn't know what Brexit was. To expect the country to pull out of the EU based on an election where all parties lied and the winners overspent and were prosecuted for it is insanity. Brexit, whichever one you get, isn't going to be the one most people who voted for it wanted. The Irish border issue is just an example of the sheer cost of this to the UK and the #1 cross border activity will become smuggling......we were very adept at it last time there was a hard border with NI

You sound like Question Time: "Leavers were too stupid, didn't know what they voted for...xenophobes...blah blah" You do realise every time you or some Remainer politician says that you simply strengthen our resolve?

Every election campaign is full of lies, false promises and project fear. People voted Leave based on what they know and experience. If the EU hasn't delivered a positive experience for those people, why would they vote remain? Even if all they see is low-wage competition for jobs, uncomfortably massive and rapid social change, even if they've experienced Eastern European criminal gangs or Romany pickpockets, of course they're going to vote leave. A pretty waterside development funded by the EU means nothing if your electrician husband has taken a 20% drop in income due to cheap Polish labour, or the 15 drunk Eastern Europeans living in the terraced house next door are ruining your life. These are not uncommon examples.

And screw the Irish. Seriously. They've done nothing but sit back with their arms crossed saying "what's your solution" without lifting a finger. You might say 'the British chose to leave, not the Irish' - but the sensible course of action would have been to collaborate to reach a solution. The parade of Irish/Sinn Fein puppets doing nothing but whinging about the situation has become a parody of itself. If they want a workable solution they need to muck in and work towards it. One might almost think they want things to go sour for ulterior motives...

October 18th. There needs to be an agreement on the Border, the Cash Settlement and the rights of each parties citizens.......if that passes without those 3 then you get your Hard Brexit......and the Dark Ages (and 2007) will seem like disneyland for the working classes of the UK

Yep, and you know what, ultimately even a cliff edge will all be worth it. You see, that's what twitchy Remainers don't understand. We want out, simple as that. Life will go on, the sun will rise, business and trade will continue. Yes, things will change, things could be tough for a while, some will bite the bullet but others will thrive.

I'll leave you with this. Jacob Rees-Mogg or Boris Johnson will lead the country by the time you leave.........these are the types of politician that closed the Mines, tried to abolish trade Unions, sold the "family jewels" through Privatisation and who have let the NHS fall into a coma through lack of investment and the only people not to suffer are the Wealthy.....do you really think that anything will change other than the workers will work harder for less and probably on 0 hour contracts whilst the wealthy will get richer?

Who closed the mines? You might want to revisit your knowledge on that topic. Labour closed almost twice as many as the Tories ever did. Tony Benn alone closed more than Thatcher and Heseltine combined.

And given that the Trade Unions - in failing to move with the times or understand changing markets - were a huge part of the problem that saw economic disaster after disaster during the 1970s, and the loss of the Heath government, they get little sympathy from me.

You can trot out all the anti-Tory rhetoric you like. I'm sure you probably bore your buddies to death with it down the local. Either way, the Tories will remain in No.10 while Corbyn leads the mess currently masquerading as the Labour Party.

The NHS is in a coma? Could've fooled me. It has crucial problems, yes, but it's still a fantastic service for the majority. Perhaps the view from Canada isn't all that clear.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:44 pm  

Edited Highlights of a non-jingoistic and assuredly non-racist point of view

Cronus wrote:

Far too many, far too quickly.
to much higher birth rates among immigrants.
Germanics running the EU <snip>They do not like dissent, or admitting they could be even partially wrong.
...buying Chinese is often a false economy.
even if they've experienced Eastern European criminal gangs or Romany pickpockets, if your electrician husband has taken a 20% drop in income due to cheap Polish labour,
or the 15 drunk Eastern Europeans living in the terraced house
And screw the Irish.
The parade of Irish/Sinn Fein puppet

.......nah, nothing i there to make me think you didn't vote leave because you just don't like foreigners....nothing at all.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:00 am  

Call Me God wrote:

Edited Highlights of a non-jingoistic and assuredly non-racist point of view
.......nah, nothing i there to make me think you didn't vote leave because you just don't like foreigners....nothing at all.

Aaah I see, you're a member of the <fingers in ears> "YOU'RE A XENOPHOBE!!!!" gang. The sort who refuse to accept the inconvenient reality.

As someone who has lived and worked in Europe for several years, here's something that might surprise you. Unlike the snowflake liberal left, Europeans aren't scared of stereotypes. Italians will proclaim they are emotional (they might prefer passionate). Germans admit they are logical (or as my German friends say, they overthink). The French believe they are truly more stylish than anyone else.

Stereotypes nearly always have a grounding in truth. Like it or not, Romany pickpockets, cheap Eastern European labour, higher immigrant birth rates, the Irish border negotiation stalemate, houses full of Eastern European labourers, and cheap but poor quality Chinese goods are the reality of our modern world.

Don't melt, that's how it is.

Nothing...absolutely nothing I've said is untrue, or uncommon. If it is, I challenge you to disprove it. Go on. I'll save you the time. You can't.

I wish I could say it was nice talking to you. Utter waste of time. Another Remainer robot.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:36 am  

Cronus wrote:

Nothing...absolutely nothing I've said is untrue, or uncommon. If it is, I challenge you to disprove it. Go on. I'll save you the time. You can't.

No. Everything you've said is a caricature of reality, exaggerated in places to magnify and alarm.
Yes, there are Romany Pickpockets......as there are British ones
Yes, there are Eastern Europeans living i overcrowded houses who drink far too much...as there Brits living the same lifestyles
Yes, Polish Electricians are cheap, but if you're not qualified, you can't work, so these people are trading services in a free market economy.
Yes, The Irish are "hand sitting" on the issue of the border. You lot sat in our land for 700 years......don't moan now it's biting you on the 'arris
Yes, Germans can be seen as somewhat stoic and overbearing, as ca a great many British, including your Royal Family who are a "tad" German
Yes, Immigrants may well breed at a faster rate, but for each one that does, there's a housing estate somewhere with 5 Brits doing the same
Yes, there are undoubtedly quality issues with some Chinese products, but they still shift more stuff in a day than you do in a Month.

As for screwing the Irish. I think you'll find that we've forced you not once, but twice to the negotiating table and twice we've had the better of you......and that sticks in your craw doesn't it, you jingoistic and outright racist person.

Remainer?
Brexit doesn't bother me ad which way it goes, it goes as I reside in New Zealand. All I did was highlight the main reason you voted leave using words you typed...because you don't like foreigners or being told what to do by them.

As for your work history stories of European coworkers.....you're like the bloke that has to have a gay friend to show you're not a homophobe...and you do seem quite angsty at being shown up for the racist you are.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:21 am  

Cronus wrote:

Unlike the snowflake liberal left,

Cronus wrote:

Don't melt, that's how it is.

Just picked up on this Adolf.....I am neither Liberal or a Leftie and most assuredly not a snowflake I just don't like racist bullies!

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:00 am  

Call Me God wrote:

No. Everything you've said is a caricature of reality, exaggerated in places to magnify and alarm.
Yes, there are Romany Pickpockets......as there are British ones
Yes, there are Eastern Europeans living i overcrowded houses who drink far too much...as there Brits living the same lifestyles
Yes, Polish Electricians are cheap, but if you're not qualified, you can't work, so these people are trading services in a free market economy.
Yes, The Irish are "hand sitting" on the issue of the border. You lot sat in our land for 700 years......don't moan now it's biting you on the 'arris
Yes, Germans can be seen as somewhat stoic and overbearing, as ca a great many British, including your Royal Family who are a "tad" German
Yes, Immigrants may well breed at a faster rate, but for each one that does, there's a housing estate somewhere with 5 Brits doing the same
Yes, there are undoubtedly quality issues with some Chinese products, but they still shift more stuff in a day than you do in a Month.

Aah good, so you agree these are genuine issues, many of which could have negative impacts on communities. Good. Well done.

You might want to read up on birth rates though, you're completely wrong on that one. Just as you were wrong about the mines. Gone quiet on that point haven't we?

As for screwing the Irish. I think you'll find that we've forced you not once, but twice to the negotiating table and twice we've had the better of you......and that sticks in your craw doesn't it, you jingoistic and outright racist person.

Well, let's see how smug you and your hand-sitting politicians are if we end up having to seal the border.

Brexit doesn't bother me ad which way it goes, it goes as I reside in New Zealand. All I did was highlight the main reason you voted leave using words you typed...because you don't like foreigners or being told what to do by them.

Nope, I simply don't like the impact of stupid immigration policies or the ultimate goal or nature of the EU.

As for your work history stories of European coworkers.....you're like the bloke that has to have a gay friend to show you're not a homophobe...and you do seem quite angsty at being shown up for the racist you are.

Keep mud slinging lad, that's all types like you can do when they're shown up.

What you fail to realise is that for years loony snowflake liberals have been screaming RACIST at anyone questioning immigration, which had the cumulative effect of being a big influence in the Brexit vote. No-one was listening. The EU were arrogant and disparaging as usual and Cameron got slapped down on his attempts at reform. The referendum was the only true means of sending a message. So well done, the sneering, contemptible attitude you consistently display on here actually helped win the Leave vote.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:18 pm  

YAWN!