Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:56 pm  

Cronus wrote:

What you fail to realise is that for years loony snowflake liberals have been screaming RACIST at anyone questioning immigration

There are nearly 1,000,000 Polish born people currently living in the UK. 2 of these immigrant workers reside in a flat I own in West London with their two dogs. Both work in the healthcare sector and are paid by the NHS. They earn (in my opinion) Peanuts for the jobs that they do, but they like their lifestyle, because their sexual orientation is an issue back in Poland, but not in London. This is a fact and not my opinion

To listen to you, my flat would have 25 permanently pi55ed up poles partying all night long before going to work as electricians and stealing work from british sparkies......this is your OPINION.

Your opinion is what got Brexit across the line.......well, that and a Red bus with a blatant lie written on the side.

I am neither, as I have already pointed out a Liberal nor a snowflake, but if I can spot a racist bigot a mile away. As the saying goes, not everyone who voted leave is a racist, but every racist voted leave and purely by the number of instances where you have "magnified" an issue such as the Permanently Pi55ed Polish Sparky's above, I see you as a racist. You may not even know it, but you are.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Thu Sep 27, 2018 9:47 pm  

Call Me God wrote: There are nearly 1,000,000 Polish born people currently living in the UK. 2 of these immigrant workers reside in a flat I own in West London with their two dogs. Both work in the healthcare sector and are paid by the NHS. They earn (in my opinion) Peanuts for the jobs that they do, but they like their lifestyle, because their sexual orientation is an issue back in Poland, but not in London. This is a fact and not my opinion To listen to you, my flat would have 25 permanently pi55ed up poles partying all night long before going to work as electricians and stealing work from british sparkies......this is your OPINION. Nope, wrong again. It is fact, not opinion, that there's been a trend of large numbers of Eastern European men living in small, low-cost rentals. I could literally take you to a supermarket I used to frequent in North Manchester, and every evening you are absolutely guaranteed to see large numbers of Eastern European men buying cheap booze on their way home from work (mostly beer as it happens, not vodka), and then going to their homes (in my experience mostly old terraced houses), where often several sleep to a room. This is not opinion - this is fact. Now imagine the impact if you're a family living next door. How do you think this might shape their views of freedom of movement? The thing is, because you haven't experienced it you don't understand and refuse to accept it. Your charming Polish renters sound lovely, but that doesn't mean it isn't happening. The streets of most towns are seeing this day in, day out. There are, in fact, many reports that acknowledge the trend of immigrants living in overcrowded accommodation: LSE, the ONS, The Home Office, Uni of Sheffield, Demos: Changing Places to name just a couple...the list is extensive. It's common knowledge this is happening, yet an ex-Paddy living on the other side of the world knows better. A cursory search found a couple of results for you: 35 to a house, 26 to a house, undercover as an Eastern European, I am neither, as I have already pointed out a Liberal nor a snowflake, but if I can spot a racist bigot a mile away. As the saying goes, not everyone who voted leave is a racist, but every racist voted leave and purely by the number of instances where you have "magnified" an issue such as the Permanently Pi55ed Polish Sparky's above, I see you as a racist. You may not even know it, but you are. Approximately 60% of the British population favour a reduction in immigration. 30% more think it should not increase. By your logic, they are all racist xenophobe bigots. Some are, of course, but you can't ignore that the majority have genuine concerns mainly based on their own experience. Not words on a bus, experience. And you're doing a damn fine impression of a blinkered snowflake liberal. You throw all the cliched insults at the first sign of criticism of mass immigration or indeed any comment which doesn't fit to your indoctrinated mindset, and you ignore the inconvenient facts. You may not even know it, but you are.

Call Me God wrote: There are nearly 1,000,000 Polish born people currently living in the UK. 2 of these immigrant workers reside in a flat I own in West London with their two dogs. Both work in the healthcare sector and are paid by the NHS. They earn (in my opinion) Peanuts for the jobs that they do, but they like their lifestyle, because their sexual orientation is an issue back in Poland, but not in London. This is a fact and not my opinion To listen to you, my flat would have 25 permanently pi55ed up poles partying all night long before going to work as electricians and stealing work from british sparkies......this is your OPINION. Nope, wrong again. It is fact, not opinion, that there's been a trend of large numbers of Eastern European men living in small, low-cost rentals. I could literally take you to a supermarket I used to frequent in North Manchester, and every evening you are absolutely guaranteed to see large numbers of Eastern European men buying cheap booze on their way home from work (mostly beer as it happens, not vodka), and then going to their homes (in my experience mostly old terraced houses), where often several sleep to a room. This is not opinion - this is fact. Now imagine the impact if you're a family living next door. How do you think this might shape their views of freedom of movement? The thing is, because you haven't experienced it you don't understand and refuse to accept it. Your charming Polish renters sound lovely, but that doesn't mean it isn't happening. The streets of most towns are seeing this day in, day out. There are, in fact, many reports that acknowledge the trend of immigrants living in overcrowded accommodation: LSE, the ONS, The Home Office, Uni of Sheffield, Demos: Changing Places to name just a couple...the list is extensive. It's common knowledge this is happening, yet an ex-Paddy living on the other side of the world knows better. A cursory search found a couple of results for you: 35 to a house, 26 to a house, undercover as an Eastern European, I am neither, as I have already pointed out a Liberal nor a snowflake, but if I can spot a racist bigot a mile away. As the saying goes, not everyone who voted leave is a racist, but every racist voted leave and purely by the number of instances where you have "magnified" an issue such as the Permanently Pi55ed Polish Sparky's above, I see you as a racist. You may not even know it, but you are. Approximately 60% of the British population favour a reduction in immigration. 30% more think it should not increase. By your logic, they are all racist xenophobe bigots. Some are, of course, but you can't ignore that the majority have genuine concerns mainly based on their own experience. Not words on a bus, experience. And you're doing a damn fine impression of a blinkered snowflake liberal. You throw all the cliched insults at the first sign of criticism of mass immigration or indeed any comment which doesn't fit to your indoctrinated mindset, and you ignore the inconvenient facts. You may not even know it, but you are.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Thu Sep 27, 2018 10:20 pm  

Cronus wrote:

It is fact, not opinion, that there's been a trend of large numbers of Eastern European men living in small, low-cost rentals

So, of the 1,000,000 Poles currently living in the UK, how many do you reckon are living this way?

As I say, you and your ilk MAGNIFY to TERRIFY and this is exactly how Brexit was won.

It's a circular debate because you'll never admit to yourself, let alone anyone else that you are racist and I certainly won't buy the lies and deceit that were used by those running Brexit (Media Moguls and the upper class using the right wing and uneducated as proxy's).

BTW.....I lived in that flat in west London and am fully aware of the Polish lads drinking insanely strong beer and getting "bladdered", so the "you don't know because you've not experienced it" argument fall there......back in the day it was the Irish who had that reputation...remember, No Dogs, No Blacks, No Irish? The very fact that UKIP, one of the leading lights of the Brexit movement were even considering inviting Tony Robinson to join is disgusting......but the possibility also lays bare the Muslim "undercurrent" running through the entire campaign

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Thu Sep 27, 2018 10:54 pm  

Call Me God wrote:

So, of the 1,000,000 Poles currently living in the UK, how many do you reckon are living this way?

As I say, you and your ilk MAGNIFY to TERRIFY and this is exactly how Brexit was won.

Well, the LSE says 40% of immigrants in London. That's quite a lot. Probably similar elsewhere. You'll ignore that as you ignore everything that doesn't fit your amusingly textbook snowflake narrative.

It's a circular debate because you'll never admit to yourself, let alone anyone else that you are racist and I certainly won't buy the lies and deceit that were used by those running Brexit (Media Moguls and the upper class using the right wing and uneducated as proxy's).

I care nothing of a person's race or nationality. What I care about is the numbers - something I've said on here dozens of times. A million (net) every 3-4 years? Bringing far higher birth rates, as will their children? In an already overcrowded country? You don't seem to care about facts but do the sums and the the future is not pretty...10, 20, 50 years from now, and combined with an ageing population, the numbers will be exploding at a rate we simply cannot sustain.

BTW.....I lived in that flat in west London and am fully aware of the Polish lads drinking insanely strong beer and getting "bladdered", so the "you don't know because you've not experienced it" argument fall there......back in the day it was the Irish who had that reputation...remember, No Dogs, No Blacks, No Irish? The very fact that UKIP, one of the leading lights of the Brexit movement were even considering inviting Tony Robinson to join is disgusting......but the possibility also lays bare the Muslim "undercurrent" running through the entire campaign

Hang on...one minute it's not happening and the next you're "fully aware" if it? Going in circles here laddy.

I'm not sure why you've brought UKIP into this but they're an irrelevant side story these days. You probably don't understand that (and a lot of other things, clearly), being on the other wide of the world n'all.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:15 pm  

Cronus wrote:

Well, the LSE says 40% of immigrants in London. That's quite a lot. Probably similar elsewhere. You'll ignore that as you ignore everything that doesn't fit your amusingly textbook snowflake narrative.

Yet London overwhelmingly voted remain? Surely if London is overrun with cheap pi55ed polish electricians they'd have voted to kick them all out, but nope...you simply MAGNIFY to TERRIFY.

Cronus wrote:

I care nothing of a person's race or nationality.

Other than

Cronus wrote:

Far too many, far too quickly.
to much higher birth rates among immigrants.
Germanics running the EU <snip>They do not like dissent, or admitting they could be even partially wrong.
...buying Chinese is often a false economy.
even if they've experienced Eastern European criminal gangs or Romany pickpockets, if your electrician husband has taken a 20% drop in income due to cheap Polish labour,
or the 15 drunk Eastern Europeans living in the terraced house
And screw the Irish.
The parade of Irish/Sinn Fein puppet

Cronus wrote:

What I care about is the numbers - something I've said on here dozens of times. A million (net) every 3-4 years? Bringing far higher birth rates, as will their children? In an already overcrowded country? You don't seem to care about facts but do the sums and the the future is not pretty...10, 20, 50 years from now, and combined with an ageing population, the numbers will be exploding at a rate we simply cannot sustain.

The world population is growing.....blaming immigrants for your fears is racist, pure and simple and building walls a la trump isn't a solution.

I'm not sure why you've brought UKIP into this [/quote]
Because Nigel Farage and his band of right wing middle class idiots were to the front of the campaign to Leave. The fact that to try and regain some attention and votes they were considering inviting a convicted racist to join them is very relevant.

As I said. You won't admit it to yourself, but you are a racist and your fear of "overpopulation" is just a convenient way for you to hide it from others...

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:37 pm  

Call Me God wrote:

Yet London overwhelmingly voted remain? Surely if London is overrun with cheap pi55ed polish electricians they'd have voted to kick them all out, but nope...you simply MAGNIFY to TERRIFY.

Other than
The world population is growing.....blaming immigrants for your fears is racist, pure and simple and building walls a la trump isn't a solution.

Because Nigel Farage and his band of right wing middle class idiots were to the front of the campaign to Leave. The fact that to try and regain some attention and votes they were considering inviting a convicted racist to join them is very relevant.

As I said. You won't admit it to yourself, but you are a racist and your fear of "overpopulation" is just a convenient way for you to hide it from others...

Lalalalala fingers in ears. Ignore the stats, ignore the studies, ignore the concerns of the people, blame it all on racism (and keep repeating it). You remind me of Dianne Abbott - simply ignore the facts and stick to your line even when you look ridiculous.

Immigration comes down to numbers. I've said it more times than I can remember. Oh and here's a tip: just because someone doesn't talk in line with impossibly delicate sensitivities of the aggressively politically correct, doesn't make them racist. You would do well to take that in.

As I've also said before, your type of sneering attitude is (a small) part of the reason people voted Leave, yet a few years later you're still shouting too loudly to understand that.

Anyone who thinks the population in the UK isn't heading to critical levels within several decades either isn't intelligent enough to understand or purposefully ignores the numbers. Either way, I think our little discussion has run its course.

Where are the usual suspects, at least they put up a good argument.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:36 am  

Cronus wrote:

Lalalalala fingers in ears. Ignore the stats, ignore the studies, ignore the concerns of the people, blame it all on racism (and keep repeating it). You remind me of Dianne Abbott - simply ignore the facts and stick to your line even when you look ridiculous.

Immigration comes down to numbers. I've said it more times than I can remember. Oh and here's a tip: just because someone doesn't talk in line with impossibly delicate sensitivities of the aggressively politically correct, doesn't make them racist. You would do well to take that in.

As I've also said before, your type of sneering attitude is (a small) part of the reason people voted Leave, yet a few years later you're still shouting too loudly to understand that.

Anyone who thinks the population in the UK isn't heading to critical levels within several decades either isn't intelligent enough to understand or purposefully ignores the numbers. Either way, I think our little discussion has run its course.

Where are the usual suspects, at least they put up a good argument.

You keep playing the immigration card and use inflated numbers to back up your story, yes story.

There have been significant numbers of immigrants coming into the EU and moving for certain countries within it and yes, something has to be done to change the cycle of mass movement within both the EU and the UK.
This is an issue for all wealthier nations as we are an attractive proposition to two main groups of people, those who want to "sponge" from our welfare system and more importantly, those who wish to make a better life for themselves and in turn, help the rest of the country that they move to.

Reading the Daily Mail etc, there are only "freeloaders" coming over here wanting everything for nothing but, the reality is somewhat different, although the positive aspects make very little (if any) press.

The more interesting aspect of our immigration figures are the "controlled" numbers, mainly from the Asian continent but, you make no comment on these ??

Our threat to leave the EU does seem to have stemmed the tide from Eastern Europe somewhat and this is hardly surprising as nobody is going to want to put the time and effort in try and improve their lot, if their may be issues with their residency further down the line.

Your citing of people gathering in large numbers and living under one roof again, makes great headlines and no doubt there are some of these in a number of places around the UK but, what is the actual scale of this particular problem or, are you headline grabbing, again.

Finally, I have read your comments about the country taking a financial "hit" post Brexit and this for me is THE biggest issue.

Bearing in mind that we have had 10+ years of Austerity and we have pretty weak growth already, how much of a hit do you think we can take ??

Yes, we will eventually recover to a new level but, by this time the UK will have fallen further behind the likes of France & Germany and we may well struggle economically for a number of years.

Whilst we scrabble around trying to strike new trade deals, both finance and manufacturing will drift towards Germany and France and although you have some admirable principles regarding the set up of The EU and the faceless bureaucrats (which are hard to disagree with), personally, I feel that they are a price worth paying to be part of the EU trading bloc and the security that this brings.

We believe that we are best buddies with the USA but, (assuming that we had a trade deal), what would happen if/when Trump threw his teddy out of the pram. We would have zero response and yet this is one of the deals that Farage and Co were pinning so much of their pitch on.

[Bullseye]

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:09 am  

Whether you believe it to be a good idea or not the contingency planning for no deal isn't going well. I speak as someone who is involved in it. There'd better be a deal or it will be a clusterfeck next April.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:07 am  

wrencat1873 wrote: You keep playing the immigration card and use inflated numbers to back up your story, yes story. There have been significant numbers of immigrants coming into the EU and moving for certain countries within it and yes, something has to be done to change the cycle of mass movement within both the EU and the UK. This is an issue for all wealthier nations as we are an attractive proposition to two main groups of people, those who want to "sponge" from our welfare system and more importantly, those who wish to make a better life for themselves and in turn, help the rest of the country that they move to. Therein lies the problem. Yes, we are a very attractive proposition. Furthermore, one could argue the Euro has made large swathes of the EU less attractive, thus increasing the load on wealthier nations. The inconvenient truth Remainers ignore is that the EU WILL NOT REFORM. Stay in the EU and you are inextricably linked to their ideology, much of which is damaging. Many have asked for reform, all have failed. I've made the point before - if no-one is listening and your concerns are slapped down - what do you do? Ever wonder why the right - of all degrees - is on the rise throughout the EU? Even Macron's ratings are now lower than Trump's - he's ignored the concerns of vast swathes of the population and ploughed ahead with a globalist agenda. The future in France and therefore the EU is going to be very interesting. Reading the Daily Mail etc, there are only "freeloaders" coming over here wanting everything for nothing but, the reality is somewhat different, although the positive aspects make very little (if any) press. The positive aspects make loads of press, what are you on about? We've heard nothing but how they contribute to the exchequer (in reality a minimal amount), how wonderful they are for the NHS, care workers, etc, and how diversity benefits us all (how I'm still not sure but ok). There are freeloaders, of course, but I have little doubt the majority are here to work. Yet again I say - it's a numbers game: too many, too quickly. Too much disruption. Slow the rate and I doubt there would be much opposition at all. The more interesting aspect of our immigration figures are the "controlled" numbers, mainly from the Asian continent but, you make no comment on these ?? This is a Brexit thread. Non-EU immigration is of course a massive issue and will contribute enormously to the population explosion we can expect over the next few decades. Non-EU immigration is a real puzzle - we need to limit it but it's something our trade partners are demanding - that's fine as long as quotas are in line with skills, qualifications, etc. Similar to how EU immigration should function. Our threat to leave the EU does seem to have stemmed the tide from Eastern Europe somewhat and this is hardly surprising as nobody is going to want to put the time and effort in try and improve their lot, if their may be issues with their residency further down the line. Your citing of people gathering in large numbers and living under one roof again, makes great headlines and no doubt there are some of these in a number of places around the UK but, what is the actual scale of this particular problem or, are you headline grabbing, again. There are plenty of reports and studies that all reporting immigrants (especially recent arrivals and/or short-stayers) tend to live in overcrowded accommodation. The LSE found it be 40% in London, others have reported similar rates elsewhere. Honestly, if you're not aware of this problem you must have your head in the sand. It's certainly not uncommon. Yes, the headlines are always dramatic (the Metro reported another this morning), but in the background it's a very real issue. Read this account for a good idea of the situation: https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/u ... it-britain Finally, I have read your comments about the country taking a financial "hit" post Brexit and this for me is THE biggest issue. Bearing in mind that we have had 10+ years of Austerity and we have pretty weak growth already, how much of a hit do you think we can take ?? Yes, we will eventually recover to a new level but, by this time the UK will have fallen further behind the likes of France & Germany and we may well struggle economically for a number of years. Whilst we scrabble around trying to strike new trade deals, both finance and manufacturing will drift towards Germany and France and although you have some admirable principles regarding the set up of The EU and the faceless bureaucrats (which are hard to disagree with), personally, I feel that they are a price worth paying to be part of the EU trading bloc and the security that this brings. We believe that we are best buddies with the USA but, (assuming that we had a trade deal), what would happen if/when Trump threw his teddy out of the pram. We would have zero response and yet this is one of the deals that Farage and Co were pinning so much of their pitch on. Everything you say is conjecture. No-one knows what will happen. The cataclysmic scare stories we heard have not come to pass. I have little doubt there will be a not insignificant hit, but in my view it's worth it and ultimately we will recover. When I look ahead 10...20...50 years I don't like where the EU is going and the effects it would have on the UK. People talk about a divorce. I view more as being in a marriage where both earn a decent wage, and where other half takes a significant % but only gives some of that back in terms of weekly shopping, home improvements, etc. They get a discount on the weekly shop so you live with it. But they also rule the roost; what they say goes without question. They have been known to enforce their will and you are an unwanted and unwelcome partner. They decide what you do each day, what you wear and who you speak to. They decide where you can shop. If that was a real relationship eventually you'd have to leave, regardless of the disruption to your life.

wrencat1873 wrote: You keep playing the immigration card and use inflated numbers to back up your story, yes story. There have been significant numbers of immigrants coming into the EU and moving for certain countries within it and yes, something has to be done to change the cycle of mass movement within both the EU and the UK. This is an issue for all wealthier nations as we are an attractive proposition to two main groups of people, those who want to "sponge" from our welfare system and more importantly, those who wish to make a better life for themselves and in turn, help the rest of the country that they move to. Therein lies the problem. Yes, we are a very attractive proposition. Furthermore, one could argue the Euro has made large swathes of the EU less attractive, thus increasing the load on wealthier nations. The inconvenient truth Remainers ignore is that the EU WILL NOT REFORM. Stay in the EU and you are inextricably linked to their ideology, much of which is damaging. Many have asked for reform, all have failed. I've made the point before - if no-one is listening and your concerns are slapped down - what do you do? Ever wonder why the right - of all degrees - is on the rise throughout the EU? Even Macron's ratings are now lower than Trump's - he's ignored the concerns of vast swathes of the population and ploughed ahead with a globalist agenda. The future in France and therefore the EU is going to be very interesting. Reading the Daily Mail etc, there are only "freeloaders" coming over here wanting everything for nothing but, the reality is somewhat different, although the positive aspects make very little (if any) press. The positive aspects make loads of press, what are you on about? We've heard nothing but how they contribute to the exchequer (in reality a minimal amount), how wonderful they are for the NHS, care workers, etc, and how diversity benefits us all (how I'm still not sure but ok). There are freeloaders, of course, but I have little doubt the majority are here to work. Yet again I say - it's a numbers game: too many, too quickly. Too much disruption. Slow the rate and I doubt there would be much opposition at all. The more interesting aspect of our immigration figures are the "controlled" numbers, mainly from the Asian continent but, you make no comment on these ?? This is a Brexit thread. Non-EU immigration is of course a massive issue and will contribute enormously to the population explosion we can expect over the next few decades. Non-EU immigration is a real puzzle - we need to limit it but it's something our trade partners are demanding - that's fine as long as quotas are in line with skills, qualifications, etc. Similar to how EU immigration should function. Our threat to leave the EU does seem to have stemmed the tide from Eastern Europe somewhat and this is hardly surprising as nobody is going to want to put the time and effort in try and improve their lot, if their may be issues with their residency further down the line. Your citing of people gathering in large numbers and living under one roof again, makes great headlines and no doubt there are some of these in a number of places around the UK but, what is the actual scale of this particular problem or, are you headline grabbing, again. There are plenty of reports and studies that all reporting immigrants (especially recent arrivals and/or short-stayers) tend to live in overcrowded accommodation. The LSE found it be 40% in London, others have reported similar rates elsewhere. Honestly, if you're not aware of this problem you must have your head in the sand. It's certainly not uncommon. Yes, the headlines are always dramatic (the Metro reported another this morning), but in the background it's a very real issue. Read this account for a good idea of the situation: https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/u ... it-britain Finally, I have read your comments about the country taking a financial "hit" post Brexit and this for me is THE biggest issue. Bearing in mind that we have had 10+ years of Austerity and we have pretty weak growth already, how much of a hit do you think we can take ?? Yes, we will eventually recover to a new level but, by this time the UK will have fallen further behind the likes of France & Germany and we may well struggle economically for a number of years. Whilst we scrabble around trying to strike new trade deals, both finance and manufacturing will drift towards Germany and France and although you have some admirable principles regarding the set up of The EU and the faceless bureaucrats (which are hard to disagree with), personally, I feel that they are a price worth paying to be part of the EU trading bloc and the security that this brings. We believe that we are best buddies with the USA but, (assuming that we had a trade deal), what would happen if/when Trump threw his teddy out of the pram. We would have zero response and yet this is one of the deals that Farage and Co were pinning so much of their pitch on. Everything you say is conjecture. No-one knows what will happen. The cataclysmic scare stories we heard have not come to pass. I have little doubt there will be a not insignificant hit, but in my view it's worth it and ultimately we will recover. When I look ahead 10...20...50 years I don't like where the EU is going and the effects it would have on the UK. People talk about a divorce. I view more as being in a marriage where both earn a decent wage, and where other half takes a significant % but only gives some of that back in terms of weekly shopping, home improvements, etc. They get a discount on the weekly shop so you live with it. But they also rule the roost; what they say goes without question. They have been known to enforce their will and you are an unwanted and unwelcome partner. They decide what you do each day, what you wear and who you speak to. They decide where you can shop. If that was a real relationship eventually you'd have to leave, regardless of the disruption to your life.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:33 am  

Lots to comment on, so little time.

Cronus wrote:

We're dealing with a leadership group of mostly Germanics who all blindly adhere to the ideology of ever closer union across every facet of our lives, and simply will not admit change is needed. As even the many Germans I work with will admit, a Germanic admitting they might be wrong is as rare as hen's teeth. Cameron did his best, other nations have pleaded for reform - but it won't happen.

Nice racial stereotyping. My brother in law has lived in Germany for over 25 years. My brother has lived in Eastern Europe for longer, Romania for the last 10. I have more in common with the normal people of those countries than the inbred, privileged, Eton clique who your sort are happy to let run our lives.

Make no mistake - they want a Federal Europe, an EU Army, absolute political and economic union and more and more countries in the cartel

.
What you fail to mention is that Federalism is one of the entrenched constitutional principles of Germany. Their states have far more autonomy than what we can even dream of.

The EU have predictably played hardball and shown their true colours many times during the Brexit process - partly due to its clunky inflexible structure, but also due to the nature of its leaders. I've always been confident of a deal to the benefit of all parties, but I'll admit I have doubts given the EU's refusal to move on many issues. So be it, if it's a no deal, life goes on. I'd sooner be out.

Why should they move.? They made clear their principles. If we want to leave & deal with us, this is the outcome. But it's just not fair, blah, blah, blah.

As I've said all along, either way we'll be in for short-term pain for long-term gain.

If Brexiteers had been honest & said we will have 10 more years of pain the outcome would have been very different. We were promised instant nirvana.

but as any sensible economist will tell you

i.e.those who agree with me.

one of the worst being since 2007, and we bounce back each and every time.

I'm still waiting.