Food : Sat Aug 18, 2012 11:53 pm  

Have had many conversations over the last few years about the amount of diagnoses of various disorders with regards to children such as ausperges, ADD, ADHD, autism and so on.

Talking to several people of the same age as myself, we couldn't come up with any kids at our schools that would fit into these categories.

Why is that? Is it a case of not being aware of such issues? Were they there, but a diagnosis not been identified as yet? Or are there more around who have such diagnoses made nowadays? If so, why?

We also spoke about a potential link to diets. In our parents’ day, yes they eat what would be described nowadays as an unhealthy diet, with foods high in saturated fats (dripping on bread etc), but the veg they ate was less likely to contain chemicals from sprays and the bread was bought or made fresh and preservative free.

So why is there such an increase in these "illnesses" or "disorders" with regards to children?

Could anyone offer up their thoughts on the subjects?

Re: Food : Sun Aug 19, 2012 7:15 am  

Rooster Booster wrote:

Have had many conversations over the last few years about the amount of diagnoses of various disorders with regards to children such as ausperges, ADD, ADHD, autism and so on.

Talking to several people of the same age as myself, we couldn't come up with any kids at our schools that would fit into these categories.

Why is that? Is it a case of not being aware of such issues? Were they there, but a diagnosis not been identified as yet? Or are there more around who have such diagnoses made nowadays? If so, why?

We also spoke about a potential link to diets. In our parents’ day, yes they eat what would be described nowadays as an unhealthy diet, with foods high in saturated fats (dripping on bread etc), but the veg they ate was less likely to contain chemicals from sprays and the bread was bought or made fresh and preservative free.

So why is there such an increase in these "illnesses" or "disorders" with regards to children?

Could anyone offer up their thoughts on the subjects?

Your first question is a pretty simple one for me personally to answer - I attended a Grammar School back in the days when there was such a thing, and as such, the kids that possibly had suffered from any of the conditions you mention would have been filtered out by the 11 plus - harsh but true.

If I think back to my Primary school then yes I can think immediately of two examples who were simply labelled as "slow" by the teaching authorities, or "thick" by us kids, also harsh but true, one of them was kept back a year at 11 in the hope that he might catch up but he didn't, the other with hindsight must have been a candidate for autism but he was simply bullied along by teachers until they could send him off to the Secondary Modern.

I'm not so sure about the foods either, its a nice rosy image to think that as kids we all ate fresh organic produce but the reality is that we didn't - we DID eat mainly home cooked food as the only take-aways on offer when I was a kid was fish and chips and the only ready-made meals in the supermarkets was a dried Vesta Chow Mein, its one of the reasons why supermarkets from my childhood would be called mini-markets now, simply because they didn't have the same amount of stock to carry.

There was less regulation though and so I'm not sure that the vegetables and the fruit (that we ate a lot more of) weren't treated with chemicals and/or preservatives and we certainly ate factory processed bread rather than fresh because we had no baker nearby.

Despite that I think there is a place to argue that diet is worse these days, despite awareness of diet being a thousand times more prevalent than it was in the 1960s when "diet" was something your mother did using Ryvita and cottage cheese.

Re: Food : Sun Aug 19, 2012 2:16 pm  

When I was at school we did have a few "slow" kids who were possibly mildly autistic. Being a scientist myself, a profession that lends its self well to people with Asperger's, I currently work with a PhD Chemist who has the condition (as do a lot of his family who are engineers/scientists). I have worked with others over the years who have undoubtedly suffered from the condition (though undiagnosed) as I now realise did some of my class mates.

As for ADHD, yes I probably did have some classmates who had the condition. However, in my schooldays, they were classed as just being naughty and kept in line by application of a ruler, slipper or cane.

Re: Food : Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:53 am  

There was an interesting documentary on Australian TV last night, which I unfortunately only saw the last 5 mins of. It was called the Autism Enigma. http://www.abc.net.au/iview/#/view/994811 I don't know if you'll be able to see it in UK. http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/ ... 574441.htm It's being called the Western Disease. Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) is the fastest growing developmental condition in the western world. There is no typical case and there is no accepted cure for it. Fifty years ago it was considered rare, affecting one in 10,000 children. Now the number of children being diagnosed with ASD in the United States is one in 90. To add to this troubling picture, in North America and other parts of the world, there's evidence that ASD rates are much higher in some immigrant populations. So much so that ASD has become known as "the Western disease". But what is causing this dramatic rise, and why do some communities have higher rates of ASD? Some experts suggest it's because doctors are better able to diagnose the condition, and the criteria for autism diagnosis has been expanded. Others are asking if there's a possible environmental cause. Could the food we eat and commonly used drugs, intended to kill infection, play a part in the development of certain forms of autism? Scientists are looking at the changes in their diets and at the reality that it may be a "gut" issue and linked to foods and antibiotics. And suggesting that probiotics can help.

There was an interesting documentary on Australian TV last night, which I unfortunately only saw the last 5 mins of. It was called the Autism Enigma. http://www.abc.net.au/iview/#/view/994811 I don't know if you'll be able to see it in UK. http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/ ... 574441.htm It's being called the Western Disease. Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) is the fastest growing developmental condition in the western world. There is no typical case and there is no accepted cure for it. Fifty years ago it was considered rare, affecting one in 10,000 children. Now the number of children being diagnosed with ASD in the United States is one in 90. To add to this troubling picture, in North America and other parts of the world, there's evidence that ASD rates are much higher in some immigrant populations. So much so that ASD has become known as "the Western disease". But what is causing this dramatic rise, and why do some communities have higher rates of ASD? Some experts suggest it's because doctors are better able to diagnose the condition, and the criteria for autism diagnosis has been expanded. Others are asking if there's a possible environmental cause. Could the food we eat and commonly used drugs, intended to kill infection, play a part in the development of certain forms of autism? Scientists are looking at the changes in their diets and at the reality that it may be a "gut" issue and linked to foods and antibiotics. And suggesting that probiotics can help.

Re: Food : Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:35 am  

I'm not claiming that this is connected to autism (of which I know little and understand even less), but to take up your general point about food: it's increasingly believed that a substantial reason for the rise in conditions such as irritable bowel syndrome is the way we make vast amounts of bread in the UK – ie the Chorleywood method, which uses much more yeast in order to speed the process. Similarly, I think it's also widely believed that there are links between some foods with large amounts of artificial additives, and behavioural problems, such as ADD and so on. Some of this seems to have links to sugar. Only the other week, Which? magazine reported that cereal bars, which are presented as healthy and largely seen that way (partly because cereals are viewed as healthy) often contain vast amounts of sugar. I have wondered, more than once, whether, if there is a link between such foods and hyper behaviour in children, there is a similar link between junk/fast food and chemical-laden lager in adults that is a contributory factor in the sort of behaviour that is often reported in town centres at weekends. One of the reasons that the hop fields in the UK have declined hugely (if not quite died off altogether) is that we don't use hops as a natural preservative in lots of beers/lagers now, substituting chemical alternatives. A couple of related posts, if you're interested: 'Healthy pizzas' and school dinners. The nature of 'processed food' and what is meant by it.

I'm not claiming that this is connected to autism (of which I know little and understand even less), but to take up your general point about food: it's increasingly believed that a substantial reason for the rise in conditions such as irritable bowel syndrome is the way we make vast amounts of bread in the UK – ie the Chorleywood method, which uses much more yeast in order to speed the process. Similarly, I think it's also widely believed that there are links between some foods with large amounts of artificial additives, and behavioural problems, such as ADD and so on. Some of this seems to have links to sugar. Only the other week, Which? magazine reported that cereal bars, which are presented as healthy and largely seen that way (partly because cereals are viewed as healthy) often contain vast amounts of sugar. I have wondered, more than once, whether, if there is a link between such foods and hyper behaviour in children, there is a similar link between junk/fast food and chemical-laden lager in adults that is a contributory factor in the sort of behaviour that is often reported in town centres at weekends. One of the reasons that the hop fields in the UK have declined hugely (if not quite died off altogether) is that we don't use hops as a natural preservative in lots of beers/lagers now, substituting chemical alternatives. A couple of related posts, if you're interested: 'Healthy pizzas' and school dinners. The nature of 'processed food' and what is meant by it.

Re: Food : Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:56 am  

Nice.

There could be something in our previous discussion then about the amount of these conditions/disorders etc. As for the processed food article and think of all those E numbers etc.

Who knows what combinations are going into children and what effect it's having. Maybe what we're seeing is the cumulative effect of a generation or two now of people being brought up on poor processed food. As I said I know that the oldies would have had dripping on bread to eat and that it was bad from a sat fat point of view, But the animal it was fed on probably wasn't fed crap like they are these days. And creutzfeldt-jakob disease shows what happens when you mess with the food chain. I think the interesting thing is that the immigrants in Canada on that programme had a far higher number of autisitic children NOW they are in Canada. But not before. The main difference? Their diet.

As for Jamie Oliver. Never trust someone that makes a risotto in venice saying it's venetian and then pours olive oil over it. Why does he do that to every bloody italian meal he cooks?

Re: Food : Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:19 am  

Rooster Booster wrote: ... Who knows what combinations are going into children and what effect it's having. Maybe what we're seeing is the cumulative effect of a generation or two now of people being brought up on poor processed food... Could well be. Rooster Booster wrote: As I said I know that the oldies would have had dripping on bread to eat and that it was bad from a sat fat point of view ... But, as I've mentioned before, the saturated fats that we 'used' to eat were natural – dripping, lard and butter. The French eat more diary produce than anyone else on earth, yet have a lower rate of heart disease than they 'should'. In the south west of the country, they also produce and consume such fatty joys as foie gras and duck confit. And the same result (or lack of it) occurs. Hence, 'the French Paradox'. We've been sold a lie in terms of the link between saturated fat, high ('bad') cholesterol and heart disease. It was only ever 'proved' by one person, Ancel Keyes, and he lied. In essence, he produced something called the Seven Countries Study, which claimed to prove this link. But the trouble is, he'd actually researched 22 countries – and abandoned the majority of his results because they didn't prove what he wanted them to prove. Those countries included not just France and Italy, but northern European countries such as the Netherlands too. Unfortunately, the US and UK in particular have essentially made Keyes's findings crucial to their public health policies. And this is wonderful for big pharm. Dr Phil Hammond (the GP/comic who writes for Private Eye) talks of the medicalisation of the population: when you're 50, they'll have you on three or four pills a day, by the time you're 80, it'll be 20. He says that big pharm has to, in effect, create new medical problems in order to produce the profitable 'cures'. The illustration he uses is a female Viagra – first you have to create a demand, so you have to create a problem. So when, in Cholesterol and the French Paradox by Frank Cooper, you read the question: 'when did cholesterol become a disease?' you can put it into that context too. Cholesterol drugs are one of the most profitable products produced by major pharmaceutical companies. The reality is that our bodies 'know' how to deal with natural fats – and they're not the unhealthy things that they have been portrayed for three or four decades. The manufactured fats, on the other hand – margarine is disgusting, for instance: even the so-called 'healthy' (and always quite expensive) spreads containing olive oil make you ask questions, starting with: 'how do they make a liquid (olive oil) unnaturally solid?' Rooster Booster wrote: ... But the animal it was fed on probably wasn't fed crap like they are these days. And creutzfeldt-jakob disease shows what happens when you mess with the food chain... Very much agree. Rooster Booster wrote: ... I think the interesting thing is that the immigrants in Canada on that programme had a far higher number of autisitic children NOW they are in Canada. But not before. The main difference? Their diet... I really couldn't comment, having not seen the programme. What was their socio-economic situation? Did that impact on diet? There is certainly discussion around that obesity, for instance, is becoming a 'disease' of the poor, where historically it was something rich people were more likely to suffer from. But perhaps it ties in with the sort of thing that Raymond Blanc (and others) say about the US and UK in particular – that they have both (in general) lost their natural food heritage. There was an interesting article here the other day, about how Italians are turning back to 'granny foods' because of austerity: they're cheaper – and healthier, as it happens. Rooster Booster wrote: ... As for Jamie Oliver. Never trust someone that makes a risotto in venice saying it's venetian and then pours olive oil over it. Why does he do that to every bloody italian meal he cooks? His training was very much with River Café – and that's primarily southern Italian.

Rooster Booster wrote: ... Who knows what combinations are going into children and what effect it's having. Maybe what we're seeing is the cumulative effect of a generation or two now of people being brought up on poor processed food... Could well be. Rooster Booster wrote: As I said I know that the oldies would have had dripping on bread to eat and that it was bad from a sat fat point of view ... But, as I've mentioned before, the saturated fats that we 'used' to eat were natural – dripping, lard and butter. The French eat more diary produce than anyone else on earth, yet have a lower rate of heart disease than they 'should'. In the south west of the country, they also produce and consume such fatty joys as foie gras and duck confit. And the same result (or lack of it) occurs. Hence, 'the French Paradox'. We've been sold a lie in terms of the link between saturated fat, high ('bad') cholesterol and heart disease. It was only ever 'proved' by one person, Ancel Keyes, and he lied. In essence, he produced something called the Seven Countries Study, which claimed to prove this link. But the trouble is, he'd actually researched 22 countries – and abandoned the majority of his results because they didn't prove what he wanted them to prove. Those countries included not just France and Italy, but northern European countries such as the Netherlands too. Unfortunately, the US and UK in particular have essentially made Keyes's findings crucial to their public health policies. And this is wonderful for big pharm. Dr Phil Hammond (the GP/comic who writes for Private Eye) talks of the medicalisation of the population: when you're 50, they'll have you on three or four pills a day, by the time you're 80, it'll be 20. He says that big pharm has to, in effect, create new medical problems in order to produce the profitable 'cures'. The illustration he uses is a female Viagra – first you have to create a demand, so you have to create a problem. So when, in Cholesterol and the French Paradox by Frank Cooper, you read the question: 'when did cholesterol become a disease?' you can put it into that context too. Cholesterol drugs are one of the most profitable products produced by major pharmaceutical companies. The reality is that our bodies 'know' how to deal with natural fats – and they're not the unhealthy things that they have been portrayed for three or four decades. The manufactured fats, on the other hand – margarine is disgusting, for instance: even the so-called 'healthy' (and always quite expensive) spreads containing olive oil make you ask questions, starting with: 'how do they make a liquid (olive oil) unnaturally solid?' Rooster Booster wrote: ... But the animal it was fed on probably wasn't fed crap like they are these days. And creutzfeldt-jakob disease shows what happens when you mess with the food chain... Very much agree. Rooster Booster wrote: ... I think the interesting thing is that the immigrants in Canada on that programme had a far higher number of autisitic children NOW they are in Canada. But not before. The main difference? Their diet... I really couldn't comment, having not seen the programme. What was their socio-economic situation? Did that impact on diet? There is certainly discussion around that obesity, for instance, is becoming a 'disease' of the poor, where historically it was something rich people were more likely to suffer from. But perhaps it ties in with the sort of thing that Raymond Blanc (and others) say about the US and UK in particular – that they have both (in general) lost their natural food heritage. There was an interesting article here the other day, about how Italians are turning back to 'granny foods' because of austerity: they're cheaper – and healthier, as it happens. Rooster Booster wrote: ... As for Jamie Oliver. Never trust someone that makes a risotto in venice saying it's venetian and then pours olive oil over it. Why does he do that to every bloody italian meal he cooks? His training was very much with River Café – and that's primarily southern Italian.

Re: Food : Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:31 am  

Mintball wrote: But, as I've mentioned before, the saturated fats that we 'used' to eat were natural – dripping, lard and butter. The French eat more diary produce than anyone else on earth, yet have a lower rate of heart disease than they 'should'. In the south west of the country, they also produce and consume such fatty joys as foie gras and duck confit. And the same result (or lack of it) occurs. Hence, 'the French Paradox'. We've been sold a lie in terms of the link between saturated fat, high ('bad') cholesterol and heart disease. It was only ever 'proved' by one person, Ancel Keyes, and he lied. In essence, he produced something called the Seven Countries Study, which claimed to prove this link. But the trouble is, he'd actually researched 22 countries – and abandoned the majority of his results because they didn't prove what he wanted them to prove. Those countries included not just France and Italy, but northern European countries such as the Netherlands too. Unfortunately, the US and UK in particular have essentially made Keyes's findings crucial to their public health policies. And this is wonderful for big pharm. Yeah, I'm aware of what I thought was the Gascogne paradox. Still I'm all in favour of self-medicating with natural life-saving, heart protecting substances like red wine. Unfortunately I ave high cholesterol, but for no real rhyme nor reason. However I found out my dad has high cholesterol, so it could well be a hereditary ailment as so many things are. Heart disease, cancers, etc. But not autism. Not ADHD. Not Tourettes. Won't people stand up and say hold on an effing minute here. Mintball wrote: I really couldn't comment, having not seen the programme. What was their socio-economic situation? Did that impact on diet? There is certainly discussion around that obesity, for instance, is becoming a 'disease' of the poor, where historically it was something rich people were more likely to suffer from. Do try and have a look at the link above when you have a spare hour if it works over there. Basically. Somalians. No history of it, Get to Canada. Then have a over the top number of kids with autism. Foods are different from their very basic, yet completely natural foods they ate before. You get the gist. Mintball wrote: His training was very much with River Café – and that's primarily southern Italian. tipici terrone. Tell him, they don't even cook with olive oil in parts of the far north of italy, they use butter, as you should in a proper northern risotto, nevermind drizzling it over the finished item. Also no-one seems to cook it "all'Onda" properly either. To give a foodie like yourself an idea. Look at a traditional Veneto dish like risi e bisi. Check out how wet rice dishes are and moreso seafood ristottos are in the north. http://lacucinadisusana.blogspot.com.au ... cetta.html

Mintball wrote: But, as I've mentioned before, the saturated fats that we 'used' to eat were natural – dripping, lard and butter. The French eat more diary produce than anyone else on earth, yet have a lower rate of heart disease than they 'should'. In the south west of the country, they also produce and consume such fatty joys as foie gras and duck confit. And the same result (or lack of it) occurs. Hence, 'the French Paradox'. We've been sold a lie in terms of the link between saturated fat, high ('bad') cholesterol and heart disease. It was only ever 'proved' by one person, Ancel Keyes, and he lied. In essence, he produced something called the Seven Countries Study, which claimed to prove this link. But the trouble is, he'd actually researched 22 countries – and abandoned the majority of his results because they didn't prove what he wanted them to prove. Those countries included not just France and Italy, but northern European countries such as the Netherlands too. Unfortunately, the US and UK in particular have essentially made Keyes's findings crucial to their public health policies. And this is wonderful for big pharm. Yeah, I'm aware of what I thought was the Gascogne paradox. Still I'm all in favour of self-medicating with natural life-saving, heart protecting substances like red wine. Unfortunately I ave high cholesterol, but for no real rhyme nor reason. However I found out my dad has high cholesterol, so it could well be a hereditary ailment as so many things are. Heart disease, cancers, etc. But not autism. Not ADHD. Not Tourettes. Won't people stand up and say hold on an effing minute here. Mintball wrote: I really couldn't comment, having not seen the programme. What was their socio-economic situation? Did that impact on diet? There is certainly discussion around that obesity, for instance, is becoming a 'disease' of the poor, where historically it was something rich people were more likely to suffer from. Do try and have a look at the link above when you have a spare hour if it works over there. Basically. Somalians. No history of it, Get to Canada. Then have a over the top number of kids with autism. Foods are different from their very basic, yet completely natural foods they ate before. You get the gist. Mintball wrote: His training was very much with River Café – and that's primarily southern Italian. tipici terrone. Tell him, they don't even cook with olive oil in parts of the far north of italy, they use butter, as you should in a proper northern risotto, nevermind drizzling it over the finished item. Also no-one seems to cook it "all'Onda" properly either. To give a foodie like yourself an idea. Look at a traditional Veneto dish like risi e bisi. Check out how wet rice dishes are and moreso seafood ristottos are in the north. http://lacucinadisusana.blogspot.com.au ... cetta.html

Re: Food : Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:12 pm  

Rooster Booster wrote:

Yeah, I'm aware of what I thought was the Gascogne paradox. Still I'm all in favour of self-medicating with natural life-saving, heart protecting substances like red wine...

There seems to be some thinking that that helps, certainly. I've seen more than a few pieces of research around suggesting that the healthiest diet in general is the Mediterranean diet.

And nothing beats it for taste when you have, as I did yesterday, a shed load of sardines, only caught the night before, and then grilled out in the open, with just a touch of olive oil and some dried thyme.

Rooster Booster wrote:

... Unfortunately I ave high cholesterol, but for no real rhyme nor reason. However I found out my dad has high cholesterol, so it could well be a hereditary ailment as so many things are. Heart disease, cancers, etc...

Interestingly, it seems that the French don't have much different cholesterol levels than we do in the UK – which also suggests some factor other than a diet high in saturated fat being the problem.

Rooster Booster wrote:

... But not autism. Not ADHD. Not Tourettes. Won't people stand up and say hold on an effing minute here...

It wouldn't surprise me at all. And people have tried to stand up and ask the questions – and campaign against, say, additives. But you're facing massive vested interests, with huge clout (political and financial) behind them.

Rooster Booster wrote:

Do try and have a look at the link above when you have a spare hour if it works over there. Basically. Somalians. No history of it, Get to Canada. Then have a over the top number of kids with autism. Foods are different from their very basic, yet completely natural foods they ate before. You get the gist...

I'll try to have a look next week when I'm back in the UK.

Rooster Booster wrote:

... tipici terrone. Tell him, they don't even cook with olive oil in parts of the far north of italy, they use butter ...

And lard – or lardo, as it's known. Wonderful stuff.

Rooster Booster wrote:

... as you should in a proper northern risotto ...

And there's an argument that, since rice is a northern Italian product, it's not a southern dish. Similarly, fresh pasta is only really a northern thing – in the south of the country, they mostly use dried.

Rooster Booster wrote:

... To give a foodie like yourself an idea. Look at a traditional Veneto dish like risi e bisi. ...

Nowt wrong wi' rice 'n' peas.

And thanks for the link.

Re: Food : Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:20 pm  

We don't want to fall into the trap of assuming that the French eat the same things in restaurants as they do at home.
By that token, if you were a foreigner in Britain you'd think we lived on fatty curries and highly calorific pizza.

Ah ... hang on ...