Lest we forget : Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:07 pm  

Given that it looks like we're on the verge of YET ANOTHER full-scale Israeli offensive against the embargoed, besieged people of Gaza I think it's worth recalling a few statistics from the last Israeli incursion in 2008 (figures drawn from the UNHRC Goldstone Report):

1,400 Palestinians dead. Four fifths were civilians. 358 were children.

Number of Israelis killed - THIRTEEN. Ten of which were combatants and half were the victims of friendly fire.

For every Israeli killed ONE HUNDRED Palestinians lost their lives.
For every single Israeli civilian killed FOUR HUNDRED Palestinians died.

Re: Lest we forget : Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:12 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

For every Israeli killed ONE HUNDRED Palestinians lost their lives.
For every single Israeli civilian killed FOUR HUNDRED Palestinians died.

That's the inevitable result of being stupid enough to pick a fight with some one enormously more powerful than you.

Re: Lest we forget : Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:13 pm  

The regimes of Nazi germany and Stalinist Russia saw millions and millions die. Many more than the British and American regimes.

Are we supposed to see the British and American regimes as the aggressors of WW2 simply because the loss of life on their sides was vastly less than the loss of lives elsewhere?

Re: Lest we forget : Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:17 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

The regimes of Nazi germany and Stalinist Russia saw millions and millions die. Many more than the British and American regimes.

Are we supposed to see the British and American regimes as the aggressors of WW2 simply because the loss of life on their sides was vastly less than the loss of lives elsewhere?

Is there some sort of point there?

Re: Lest we forget : Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:18 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

The regimes of Nazi germany and Stalinist Russia saw millions and millions die. Many more than the British and American regimes.

Are we supposed to see the British and American regimes as the aggressors of WW2 simply because the loss of life on their sides was vastly less than the loss of lives elsewhere?

Two words:

"Proportional response".

Re: Lest we forget : Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:26 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

Two words:

"Proportional response".

I think expecting Israel to hold back whilst its citizens are killed because whilst the Palestinians are trying to kill them, they aren’t really very good at it is ridiculous.

Re: Lest we forget : Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:33 pm  

Let's look at what really happened:

Hamas won a free and fair election.

The US & Israel attempted a coup to overthrow the government ("Democracy Promotion"). Hamas foiled the coup and sent those involved packing to the West Bank.

Israel then tightened the blockade. Goldstone called it a "possible cime against humanity".

"A flagrant violation of international law" - according to Amnesty International

"Gaza's whole civilisation has been destroyed. I am not exaggerating. Its whole civilisation has been destroyed" - former human rights commissioner - Mary Robinson (after her visit).

June 2008 - An Israel Hamas ceasefire brokered by Egypt. Each side had obligations. Palestinians - cease rocket and mortar attacks. Israel - gradually lift the blockade (a flagrant violation of international law).

According to the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs "Hamas was careful to maintain the ceasefire. There were some rogue terrorist organisations - but not Hamas". "Hamas enforced the ceasefire on the rogue terrorist organisations with a great deal although not total success!".

Israel, however, reneged on lifting the blockade.

What happened next: (Amnesty International yearbook for 2008).

Israel waited till election day in the US and then killed 6 in airstrikes.

What did Hamas do next? They kept saying until the end of December - WE ARE READY TO RENEW THE CEASEFIRE, BUT Israel has to lift the illegal blockade.

December - Sarah Roy - "The breakdown of an entire society is happening in front of us. But there is little international response beyond UN warning which are ignored".

Hamas then had two options: Succumb to starvation or resist. They chose the latter (although largely symbolic).

Re: Lest we forget : Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:40 pm  

I find it interesting you specify how flagrant a breach of international law the blockade is, yet no mention of the legality of the attempted murder of civilians via terrorist activities.

Re: Lest we forget : Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:41 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

Israel waited till election day in the US and then killed 6 in airstrikes.

Has anyone else spotted the "co-incidence", BTW?

Re: Lest we forget : Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:43 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

I find it interesting you specify how flagrant a breach of international law the blockade is, yet no mention of the legality of the attempted murder of civilians via terrorist activities.

I didn't - Goldstone (a widely respected WC jurist and, interestingly, - a Jew) & AA did.