[DaveO]

Edward Snowden : Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:22 pm  

Well IMO this is one brave man: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-surveillance A very considered approach to leaking what he did. Very careful not to jeapordise individuals but to expose the NSA and the lack of any real democratic scrutiny of what they are up to. Just goes to show when people go on about things being legal (which in theory what the NSA is doing is) it doesn't mean it is right. I wonder if those who argue tax avoidance is OK because it is legal think this is OK because it is also legal?

Well IMO this is one brave man: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-surveillance A very considered approach to leaking what he did. Very careful not to jeapordise individuals but to expose the NSA and the lack of any real democratic scrutiny of what they are up to. Just goes to show when people go on about things being legal (which in theory what the NSA is doing is) it doesn't mean it is right. I wonder if those who argue tax avoidance is OK because it is legal think this is OK because it is also legal?

Re: Edward Snowden : Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:44 pm  

DaveO wrote: Well IMO this is one brave man: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-surveillance A very considered approach to leaking what he did. Very careful not to jeapordise individuals but to expose the NSA and the lack of any real democratic scrutiny of what they are up to. Just goes to show when people go on about things being legal (which in theory what the NSA is doing is) it doesn't mean it is right. I wonder if those who argue tax avoidance is OK because it is legal think this is OK because it is also legal?

DaveO wrote: Well IMO this is one brave man: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-surveillance A very considered approach to leaking what he did. Very careful not to jeapordise individuals but to expose the NSA and the lack of any real democratic scrutiny of what they are up to. Just goes to show when people go on about things being legal (which in theory what the NSA is doing is) it doesn't mean it is right. I wonder if those who argue tax avoidance is OK because it is legal think this is OK because it is also legal?

Re: Edward Snowden : Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:44 pm  

DaveO wrote: Well IMO this is one brave man: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-surveillance A very considered approach to leaking what he did. Very careful not to jeapordise individuals but to expose the NSA and the lack of any real democratic scrutiny of what they are up to. Just goes to show when people go on about things being legal (which in theory what the NSA is doing is) it doesn't mean it is right. I wonder if those who argue tax avoidance is OK because it is legal think this is OK because it is also legal? Considering the type of punative sentencing they have in America I cannot decide on brave or stupid.

DaveO wrote: Well IMO this is one brave man: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/09/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-surveillance A very considered approach to leaking what he did. Very careful not to jeapordise individuals but to expose the NSA and the lack of any real democratic scrutiny of what they are up to. Just goes to show when people go on about things being legal (which in theory what the NSA is doing is) it doesn't mean it is right. I wonder if those who argue tax avoidance is OK because it is legal think this is OK because it is also legal? Considering the type of punative sentencing they have in America I cannot decide on brave or stupid.

Re: Edward Snowden : Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:49 pm  

I think it was naive of people not to think was was happening. I have "joked" (but seriously) about this for quite some time. It's obvious and inevitable that the information will be harvested and misused by all sort of people - companies, criminals and the state. The answer is simple - if you don't like it chuck your computer and mobile 'phone away and pay for things in cash.

Re: Edward Snowden : Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:55 pm  

Dally wrote:

... The answer is simple - if you don't like it chuck your computer and mobile 'phone away and pay for things in cash.

It will help, in that case, if you don't need such items for, say, work or the search for work etc. you'll have the devil's own job to get paid in cash, so you'll need to be part of the system on that basis too.

Then, of course, there's all the CCTV and goodness knows what other surveillance, so perhaps you should never venture out of your home?

The idea that we should accept the 'end of privacy' as a price for our security - which such invasions of privacy does not and cannot remotely guarantee - is BS.

Re: Edward Snowden : Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:02 pm  

Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither

Re: Edward Snowden : Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:05 pm  

Big Graeme wrote:

Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither

A very fine Ben Franklin quote.

Re: Edward Snowden : Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:07 pm  

Mintball wrote:

The idea that we should accept the 'end of privacy' as a price for our security - which such invasions of privacy does not and cannot remotely guarantee - is BS.

I agree. But until people stand up and be counted it'll happen. I don't see mass protests, I do not see mass expulsions of mainstream MPs at elections, I do not see direct action against the political establishment. In other words, the majority of us are content to sleep walk into totalitarianism.

[DaveO]

Re: Edward Snowden : Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:58 pm  

Dally wrote:

I agree. But until people stand up and be counted it'll happen. I don't see mass protests, I do not see mass expulsions of mainstream MPs at elections, I do not see direct action against the political establishment. In other words, the majority of us are content to sleep walk into totalitarianism.

Well Snowden certainly stood up to be counted and if you read about his motives one of the reasons he states is he was waiting for a leader to do so but when none came forward he decided he had to act. He thought Obama might reel in the punitive acts that allow these things to go on but he is as bad as all the rest.

Also while you may have joked about it and although I could be wrong, I am not sure you have grasped the extent of what has been going on. He reckons various acts such as the Patriot act directly undermine the US constitution in that they usurp the 4th and 5th amendments.

The 4th is to do with which guarding against unreasonable searches and seizures whereby they should only happen if there is probable cause and if given that a warrant is then obtained. So sifting through peoples emails as a matter of course is against the US constitution. The 5th is about abuse of government authority and legal procedures whereby Snowden thinks the FISA act (Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act ) and amendments to it (such as as the Patriot act) mean there is little due process other than rubber stamping of warrants (to get past the 4th amendment and instigate searches) by a secret court.

Now given the American public tend to be very suspicious of "big government" this kind of trampling over the constitution may well result in more people standing up to be counted. That is also one of Snowden's motives. By exposing what he sees as fundamental assaults on the constitution he hopes to motivate more than simple controversy.

This is a big issue. It's being said this is the biggest and most significant bit of whistle blowing since the 2nd world war.

Be interesting to see what transpires but reading various comments from around the net he is getting a lot of support from American citizens compared to others such as Assange. The fact he seems to have taken the moral high ground leaves the USA with a bit of a problem of how to deal with him. Going to be interesting to see what happens with this one.

Re: Edward Snowden : Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:18 pm  

Mintball wrote:

A very fine Ben Franklin quote.

Even though he may have not actually said it, I prefer his quote:
"Beer is proof God loves us and wants us to be happy"