Cyclists Cycling - do they annoy you ? : Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:27 pm  

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23587916 Have a read of the link above first, its a lesson on how to approach the cycling issue in a sensible way that involves everyone, and as a result ends up involving everyone in participation. It raised its head today on a Radio 2 phone-in about a parliamentary group advising that a new rule of thumb should apply when applying blame on road accidents, namely that might is not right but the opposite - if you are in the bigger form of transport then you expected to show a higher level of care towards other road users - this has been interpreted to mean that cyclists involved in road traffic accidents will have to be proved to have been reckless before they can be financially (and them legally) blamed by insurers/plod/prosecutors. Likewise HGV and PSV drivers would also be expected to demonstrate a greater level of care towards car drivers, and indeed cyclists towards pedestrians (just for you Mintball). I've ridden in Holland and Denmark and its an eye-opener to be the road user who has absolute right of way over motorised traffic, as someone said today its like the law of the sea where powered boats have to give way to sail - in Holland especially I didn't see any main roads that didn't have a cycle lane (separated from the road by a kerb) and the cycle lanes that go between towns and villages would often veer away from the roads and take a more direct route, tarmaced, kerbed, and with street lighting, but the best thing was finding that as you rode along a cycle route and approached a junction shared with motorised traffic you'd find a large red button mounted on a post 100 yards before the junction which you could get quite adept at hitting with the palm of a hand as you rode past - this would then change the sequence of the traffic lights in the same way that a Pelican crossing does and if you timed it right you wouldn't even have to stop at the lights as they'd be green for you when you got there. Just simple joined up thinking by planners and a recognition that if you make it a more pleasant experience for cyclists, then more people will cycle, fewer will drive (how many daily journeys are less than 10 miles), and less public transport will be required. I've also commuted on my bike to work in Leeds down one of the arterial routes into the city, its not always pleasant and you need a rear view handlebar mirror and watch it constantly, the only good thing being that I could do the journey into work quicker on the bike than I could in my car (coming back home uphill was a bit different though). Also in the news this week is the fact that Leeds City Council will be spending a considerable sum of money on resurfacing work in the city over the next twelve months in readiness for the start of The Tour de France next year - it would be nice to think that the money wasn't just spent on throwing some more tar in potholes and instead was spent on proper cycle routes into the city (there is an official one, but its absolutely ridiculous in its diversions through housing estates to avoid major roads), but somehow I just don't think that will happen anytime soon.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23587916 Have a read of the link above first, its a lesson on how to approach the cycling issue in a sensible way that involves everyone, and as a result ends up involving everyone in participation. It raised its head today on a Radio 2 phone-in about a parliamentary group advising that a new rule of thumb should apply when applying blame on road accidents, namely that might is not right but the opposite - if you are in the bigger form of transport then you expected to show a higher level of care towards other road users - this has been interpreted to mean that cyclists involved in road traffic accidents will have to be proved to have been reckless before they can be financially (and them legally) blamed by insurers/plod/prosecutors. Likewise HGV and PSV drivers would also be expected to demonstrate a greater level of care towards car drivers, and indeed cyclists towards pedestrians (just for you Mintball). I've ridden in Holland and Denmark and its an eye-opener to be the road user who has absolute right of way over motorised traffic, as someone said today its like the law of the sea where powered boats have to give way to sail - in Holland especially I didn't see any main roads that didn't have a cycle lane (separated from the road by a kerb) and the cycle lanes that go between towns and villages would often veer away from the roads and take a more direct route, tarmaced, kerbed, and with street lighting, but the best thing was finding that as you rode along a cycle route and approached a junction shared with motorised traffic you'd find a large red button mounted on a post 100 yards before the junction which you could get quite adept at hitting with the palm of a hand as you rode past - this would then change the sequence of the traffic lights in the same way that a Pelican crossing does and if you timed it right you wouldn't even have to stop at the lights as they'd be green for you when you got there. Just simple joined up thinking by planners and a recognition that if you make it a more pleasant experience for cyclists, then more people will cycle, fewer will drive (how many daily journeys are less than 10 miles), and less public transport will be required. I've also commuted on my bike to work in Leeds down one of the arterial routes into the city, its not always pleasant and you need a rear view handlebar mirror and watch it constantly, the only good thing being that I could do the journey into work quicker on the bike than I could in my car (coming back home uphill was a bit different though). Also in the news this week is the fact that Leeds City Council will be spending a considerable sum of money on resurfacing work in the city over the next twelve months in readiness for the start of The Tour de France next year - it would be nice to think that the money wasn't just spent on throwing some more tar in potholes and instead was spent on proper cycle routes into the city (there is an official one, but its absolutely ridiculous in its diversions through housing estates to avoid major roads), but somehow I just don't think that will happen anytime soon.

Re: Cyclists Cycling - do they annoy you ? : Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:21 pm  

As someone who walks along one of London's cycling superhighways twice a day, in my experience cyclists do not help themselves. Every day I see them doing things like:

1. Ignoring traffic lights.
2. Crossing junctions when pedestrians have right of way.
3. Undertaking other road vehicles - including HGVs at junctions. It is simply impossible for a lorry driver to see a cyclists on his inside. IMO, any accident involving a left-turning lorry hitting a cyclist on his inside when the lorry driver has been shown to indicate in a timely fashion should be down to the cyclist, who if they survive should be prosecuted.
4. I even still see them riding in dark clothes at night without rear lights!

I think people should be able to cycle safely but currently a large section of them (known as the "lycra mafia") totally diregard other road users, others safety and their own safety.

Re: Cyclists Cycling - do they annoy you ? : Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:25 pm  

JerryChicken wrote:

... and indeed cyclists towards pedestrians (just for you Mintball)...

You know me so well, Jerry.

Re: Cyclists Cycling - do they annoy you ? : Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:56 pm  

Dally wrote:

As someone who walks along one of London's cycling superhighways twice a day, in my experience cyclists do not help themselves. Every day I see them doing things like:

1. Ignoring traffic lights.
2. Crossing junctions when pedestrians have right of way.
3. Undertaking other road vehicles - including HGVs at junctions. It is simply impossible for a lorry driver to see a cyclists on his inside. IMO, any accident involving a left-turning lorry hitting a cyclist on his inside when the lorry driver has been shown to indicate in a timely fashion should be down to the cyclist, who if they survive should be prosecuted.
4. I even still see them riding in dark clothes at night without rear lights!

I think people should be able to cycle safely but currently a large section of them (known as the "lycra mafia") totally diregard other road users, others safety and their own safety.

If you read the linked to article you'll see some pretty hefty fines levied by the Dutch cycle police not just for not having lights on your bike but not having the correct number of reflectors on your bike, responsibility has to cut both ways.

Re: Cyclists Cycling - do they annoy you ? : Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:55 pm  

All very nice, but apart from VAT on the initial bike purchase what do cyclists contribute to justify all that infrastructure?

Re: Cyclists Cycling - do they annoy you ? : Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:21 pm  

Big Graeme wrote:

All very nice, but apart from VAT on the initial bike purchase what do cyclists contribute to justify all that infrastructure?

Why do pedestrians get footpaths?

Re: Cyclists Cycling - do they annoy you ? : Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:22 pm  

Big Graeme wrote:

All very nice, but apart from VAT on the initial bike purchase what do cyclists contribute to justify all that infrastructure?

I'd guess most bicyclists also own a motor vehicle. I love my bike for getting to work and small local trips but wouldn't fancy pedalling for the weekly shop or with my dog slung across my shoulders to get to the beach. Or any longer distance journey that needs to be made quickly. My car tax is fairly hefty to boot. Not forgetting, of course, that many small cars are tax free as well as bikes.

This is a big argument raging currently in Hull following a spate of deaths of bike riders in the local rag. One reader pointed out that road infrastructure as funded by all taxes, and not by taxes raised by Vehicle Excise Duty. There's no such thing as 'road tax' - if you pay income tax, Vat, whatever, you are paying for road infrastructure and maintenance. This means, of course, that bicyclists pay in the same way as car drivers anyway, and many (most?) pay Vehicle Excise Duty (car tax) as well as they are also car owners.

What I do think is essential is some sort of compulsory Cycling Proficiency Test for all road users on a bicycle.

Re: Cyclists Cycling - do they annoy you ? : Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:56 pm  

wigan_rlfc wrote:

Why do pedestrians get footpaths?

Mainly because they were around before the bike...

Re: Cyclists Cycling - do they annoy you ? : Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:44 am  

Big Graeme wrote:

Mainly because they were around before the bike...

Poor response to the two very good replies you received to your rather predictable question.

Re: Cyclists Cycling - do they annoy you ? : Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:00 am  

An observation: I've walked around in a number of Continental cities where there is a large amount of cycling. I've never seen the kind of aggressive cycling that I see in London, on a regular basis. I've had no comparable incident with cyclists on the Continent. Indeed, two specific do remain in my mind, precisely because of the contrast.

In France one year, an elderly man on an old-fashioned bike, cycling toward a crossing that we were nearing. We waited for him to go through and he thanked us as he passed.

Similarly, in Collioure one morning, I waited for a cyclist dressed in full racing gear to go past on one road before I crossed: he acknowledged as he went by.

In London, it's like a war.

And I do wonder how much of it is 'encouraged' (for want of a better word) by so many cyclists riding racing bikes instead of sit-up-and-beg bikes, which you see a great deal more on the Continent.