Hypothetical RTC with a moped : Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:28 pm  

Anyone living in the North West and who commutes in the car would probably have heard those annoying Sorry Mate motorcycle compensation adverts. The narrator goes on about a biker weaving through traffic on the right when a car suddenly turns and the biker collides with the car, the biker can suddenly claim compensation.

Well, it got me thinking after I nearly had a near miss with a prat on a moped. I was driving home along my street (residential area, not on a main road) with said prat on the moped close behind me. As I approached my drive I indicated to turn right and began to slow down. I began to turn, without stopping completely but slow enough in order I can get onto the drive with due care, when said muppet on two wheels decided to weave around me in the direction I was turning. I can't help but think he was lucky I didn't take to the drive any quicker, because he would have hit me had I not slowed down considerably.

But the description in the Sorry Mate advert got me thinking. If that had been a car behind me, I have no doubt the other driver would have been at fault. In fact due to the size of the vehicle that would have been behind me, they would have had to wait for me to turn completely before carrying on their journey. But would it be OK for an individual on two wheels behind me to go around me in the direction I was turning, and for me to be at fault if a collision had happened? I've seen motorcyclists go through traffic on the right loads of times so I'm not disputing that the practice is legal, but I can't help but think it's one rule for one and one rule for another in this scenario when a collision occurs.

Re: Hypothetical RTC with a moped : Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:01 pm  

Anyone who tries to overtake you whilst you are in the process of lawfully turning right will be liable for the collision, assuming you have properly indicated your intention to turn right.

The adverts are probably being run in the hope there will be an admission of liability by the car's insurer on a 50/50 basis, thus allowing the solicitor representing the biker to claim their costs.

Re: Hypothetical RTC with a moped : Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:51 pm  

The Video Ref wrote:

Anyone who tries to overtake you whilst you are in the process of lawfully turning right will be liable for the collision, assuming you have properly indicated your intention to turn right.

The adverts are probably being run in the hope there will be an admission of liability by the car's insurer on a 50/50 basis, thus allowing the solicitor representing the biker to claim their costs.

Above ^^^

Same also applies to any rider on two wheels who undertakes anything even if they are in a bike lane to the extent where if approaching traffic lights at red with vehicles already waiting it not worth going up the left hand side to try and get to the front, sooner or later you're going to end up like a teacher at my daughters old school did and that is dead underneath an HGV that was turning left while he was also turning left but trying to go on the inside of the trailer, it just ain't worth it.

Re: Hypothetical RTC with a moped : Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:30 am  

The Video Ref wrote:

Anyone who tries to overtake you whilst you are in the process of lawfully turning right will be liable for the collision, assuming you have properly indicated your intention to turn right.

Absolute nonsense, I'm afraid. You astonishingly state that as long as you indicate, this absolves you from any responsibility, but that is wholly wrong. .

Your use of the word "lawfully" doesn't add anything, and only serves to confuse the issue.

However, and whilst the Highway Code is not "the law", it can be pointed to (and very often is) in support of allegations of negligence, as in, we are all supposed to know it, and comply with it.

On this specific question (with the most relevant bits highlighted) it clearly states:

Turning right
179 Well before you turn right you should
* use your mirrors to make sure you know the position and movement of traffic behind you
...

180 Wait until there is a safe gap between you and any oncoming vehicle. Watch out for cyclists, motorcyclists, pedestrians and other road users. Check your mirrors and blind spot again to make sure you are not being overtaken, then make the turn.

The clear logic is:
a) did you know there was a motorcyclist behind you before you manoeuvred? If yes, then you should have been aware it may choose to overtake you, and are thus negligent. If no, then unless it patachuted in, you failed to see it and are negligent.

b) As you crashed whilst being overtaken, how can you possibly argue that you properly checked "to MAKE SURE" you were not being overtaken?

Checkmate, I'm afraid.

None of this, of course, prevents the motorcyclist from possibly being found contributorily negligent, but a sob story equivalent to "it came from nowhere m'lud" won't cut it.

The adverts are probably being run in the hope there will be an admission of liability by the car's insurer on a 50/50 basis, thus allowing the solicitor representing the biker to claim their costs.

In most such collisions (and it happens regular as clockwork) there is an apportionment of liability, and rightly so, as in most cases, both road users are at fault.

Re: Hypothetical RTC with a moped : Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:06 pm  

Mirror....signal....mirror.... maneuver. A simple enough sequence to follow, and one which I am sure you will all repeat in your statement to Plod.

Oh, and love the facetious advice given in the Highway Code, of checking your "blind Spot" It's, eerm, called that for a reason, and you could festoon your car/commercial vehicle with mirrors a la a 60's Mod scooter, and you would still have a "blind spot" Possibly even creating a new one!

Still, if you really wanted to check it was still there.......why not?

Re: Hypothetical RTC with a moped : Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:17 pm  

Clearly, there is a difference between being overtaken before you make the manoeuvre and someone overtaking you whilst you are the process of manoeuvring. However, fault can only be determined from the exact circumstances and evidence of any individual case.

Re: Hypothetical RTC with a moped : Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:18 pm  

Not facetious, the blind spot is real and dangerous. A good example is on the motorway, every time just before moving to another lane I automatically glance over my shoulder into my blind spot. Not often, but still on a significant number of occasions, there's something there that I couldn't see in the mirror.

If you don't know what your blind spot is then I'm afraid you're a bit of a hazard. The best way to explain it is park on a narrow road; watch a car approach in your rear view mirror. Note that at one point it will disappear from view in your mirror, but will not yet have passed you. It is in your blind spot. If you rely on your mirror and pull out at that moment you will crash. It will be your fault.

There are various gadgets, extra wide angle mirrors etc that claim to address this but nothing imho beats that momentary glance over the shoulder. The reason it is still taught by your driving instructor and is still in the Highway Code after all these years is simple; there will always be a blind spot and any careful driver needs to know this.

To see in action have a look at /watch?v=00N2kQRKVdY in a popular video sharing site.

Re: Hypothetical RTC with a moped : Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:27 pm  

LF13 wrote:

Clearly, there is a difference between being overtaken before you make the manoeuvre and someone overtaking you whilst you are the process of manoeuvring. However, fault can only be determined from the exact circumstances and evidence of any individual case.

Only an utter moron would START overtaking you AFTER you had started to turn, though. But even if it did, your problem would be that, as you (by definition) never saw the overtaking motorcycle, then you cannot possibly give evidence that that is what it did. You won't even know that that is what it did. You would only be assuming.

Also, if you knew that the motorcycle was behind you, and if you truly did check your mirrors before turning, then it's hard to see how you could fail to be aware; if the motorcycle is no longer behind you at that second- let me think, where could it be?

Re: Hypothetical RTC with a moped : Tue Nov 19, 2013 2:24 pm  

Elementary my dear pinstripes. A competent driver would know that as the vehicle starts turning, then the field of view in the mirror also changes, thus the motor cyclist could safetly be pottering along the road as before, but not in your field of view......which incidentally should now be focused forwards looking for oncoming traffic and dilatory pedestrians, as you turn into your driveway entrance.

Of course, we could adopt your strategy of cranning one's neck around and holding that position until safetly parked up in the drive, although I can see some potential problems with that course of action.......

I suspect M'Learned Friend would have a chuckle and agree that as all reasonable steps had been taken, then the fault clearly lies with the biker.

Who, if we are talking Bradford, will most likely not have insuance!

Re: Hypothetical RTC with a moped : Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:39 pm  

rumpelstiltskin wrote:

Elementary my dear pinstripes. A competent driver would know that as the vehicle starts turning, then the field of view in the mirror also changes, thus the motor cyclist could safetly be pottering along the road as before, but not in your field of view.

You need to keep your eye on the ball. The law expects you to make one last check in your mirrors and blind spot immediately BEFORE you manoeuvre. Not after. For the reasons I cut and pasted.

rumpelstiltskin wrote:

.....which incidentally should now be focused forwards looking for oncoming traffic and dilatory pedestrians, as you turn into your driveway entrance.

You could say it is stating the bleedin obvious, to say that once you've made your final check, then you look where you're planning to go before you actually set off. (Although very often people don't.)

rumpelstiltskin wrote:

Of course, we could adopt your strategy of cranning one's neck around and holding that position until safetly parked up in the drive, although I can see some potential problems with that course of action.......

The word is "craning". I do not crane nor does the glance into the blind spot take more than a mere fraction of a second. But crack on making ridiculous stuff up.

rumpelstiltskin wrote:

I suspect M'Learned Friend would have a chuckle and agree that as all reasonable steps had been taken, then the fault clearly lies with the biker.

Your proposition that "All reasonable steps had been taken" is, I'm afraid, unsupportable hogwash. I can only comment (as we have nothing else to go on) about the evidence in the current version of Peckerwood's witness statement:

As I approached my drive I indicated to turn right and began to slow down. I began to turn,

then we see poor old Peckerwood is totally knackered, as he didn't check behind him at all, not even in the mirrors. He just indicated, slowed, and began to turn. Oops.