Re: US Presidential election 2020 : Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:48 pm  

Was it not the same Dominic Raab who as the Brexit minister did not realise the importance of Dover to our trade.

[Mild Rover]

Re: US Presidential election 2020 : Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:45 pm  

Backwoodsman wrote:

Very interesting, however the population in England round about that time was tiny compared with today’s population. Migration into the uk in the last 15 years is measured in the millions. Latest reports think at least a million illegal migrants (not registered)are in the country. I don’t suppose they are all working in charity shops

Perhaps, but illegal immigration and multiculturism are different things.

Cronus wrote:

Blacks want 'equality', yes? So tell me, what challenges face a black lad on a council estate that a white lad doesn't face? Where is the institutional or rife societal racism racism that holds him back? I don't deny racism exists, but does racism remove all his opportunities? Is he denied education? Is he unable to apply for jobs? Is he unable to get out of bed and get on a bus and go to work?

I think you’ve pretty much answered your own question there. Unless you’re saying that discrimination only becomes an issue when it is absolute and all opportunities are denied.

I like ‘equality’ in inverted commas, and ‘justice’ later on. Obviously, it’d be childish of me to start doing it with another abstract concept, such as ‘sovereignty’, and, equally obviously, that won’t be stopping me. Gammons want ‘sovereignty’, yes? So tell me, what challenges faced a gammon that aren’t there following our departure from the EU? I don’t deny that membership of the EU meant some pooling of ‘sovereignty’ but did it remove all our political, economic and legal independence?

Cronus wrote:

You want less harassment from the police? Don't carry knives or stab people. Don't deal or do drugs. Don't engage in casual criminality. You want a good education? Knuckle down and study and ignore that deadhead mate taking the pss. You want a good job? Work your way up and be better than the people around you, and develop yourself. That's how people 'get on' in life.

Are you suggesting that all black people carry knives or are involved in drugs and casual criminality, or that only those that are, are harassed by the police? In which case it wouldn’t really be harassment, in fairness. If you’re saying it is a skin colour thing and innocent black people have to expect harassment or discrimination because of what black criminals do, that seems strange to me. I think it’d be unfair, and frankly ridiculous, for me to be judged based on the worst actions of other white people or be racially profiled, for example, as the sort of person who associates political protest with lager.

Re: US Presidential election 2020 : Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:38 am  

Mild Rover wrote:

Perhaps, but illegal immigration and multiculturism are different things.


I think you’ve pretty much answered your own question there. Unless you’re saying that discrimination only becomes an issue when it is absolute and all opportunities are denied.

I like ‘equality’ in inverted commas, and ‘justice’ later on. Obviously, it’d be childish of me to start doing it with another abstract concept, such as ‘sovereignty’, and, equally obviously, that won’t be stopping me. Gammons want ‘sovereignty’, yes? So tell me, what challenges faced a gammon that aren’t there following our departure from the EU? I don’t deny that membership of the EU meant some pooling of ‘sovereignty’ but did it remove all our political, economic and legal independence?

Are you suggesting that all black people carry knives or are involved in drugs and casual criminality, or that only those that are, are harassed by the police? In which case it wouldn’t really be harassment, in fairness. If you’re saying it is a skin colour thing and innocent black people have to expect harassment or discrimination because of what black criminals do, that seems strange to me. I think it’d be unfair, and frankly ridiculous, for me to be judged based on the worst actions of other white people or be racially profiled, for example, as the sort of person who associates political protest with lager.

I think the point Cronus has some validity - if things are going to improve it can't all be due to "white people" changing their behaviour - the "blacks" have to play their part. Perhaps if they provided a stable home environment that might encourage their kids to focus on their education and their ultimate aspirations?

Re: US Presidential election 2020 : Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:03 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

I think the point Cronus has some validity - if things are going to improve it can't all be due to "white people" changing their behaviour - the "blacks" have to play their part. Perhaps if they provided a stable home environment that might encourage their kids to focus on their education and their ultimate aspirations?

Nooo, it has to be based on smacking your bitch up, shooting, selling drugs, we cannot possibly deny their culture. Hoe's and Bro's, da fruiture, innit...? put a cap in da ass and smite the honkey....

Re: US Presidential election 2020 : Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:19 pm  

IR80 wrote:

Nooo, it has to be based on smacking your bitch up, shooting, selling drugs, we cannot possibly deny their culture. Hoe's and Bro's, da fruiture, innit...? put a cap in da ass and smite the honkey....

No wonder we have issues of cohesion in this country!!

Re: US Presidential election 2020 : Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:21 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

No wonder we have issues of cohesion in this country!!

cohesion works, problem is when the limited brains on the fringes claim to speak for the majority.

Re: US Presidential election 2020 : Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:31 pm  

IR80 wrote:

cohesion works, problem is when the limited brains on the fringes claim to speak for the majority.

I disagree - the problem is the cultural differences are insurmountable and getting wider as the ethnic communities grew and gain confidence. As I have said before who sold the slaves? Their inhumanity to each other e.g. honour killings, sharia law, their views on homosexuality etc smacks of cultures that haven't been capable of moving on.

Re: US Presidential election 2020 : Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:38 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

I disagree - the problem is the cultural differences are insurmountable and getting wider as the ethnic communities grew and gain confidence. As I have said before who sold the slaves? Their inhumanity to each other e.g. honour killings, sharia law, their views on homosexuality etc smacks of cultures that haven't been capable of moving on.

I disagree, no the problem is bored individuals switching allegiance to suit their loneliness.. stay safe.

[Mild Rover]

Re: US Presidential election 2020 : Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:47 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

I think the point Cronus has some validity - if things are going to improve it can't all be due to "white people" changing their behaviour - the "blacks" have to play their part. Perhaps if they provided a stable home environment that might encourage their kids to focus on their education and their ultimate aspirations?

We’re all responsible for our actions as individuals, and the same rules and judgements should apply, irrespective of colour. And tbf, that is all anybody is asking for (well, apart from banning the coco pops monkey and what have you - some individual people’s words deserve to be judged as stupid, irrespective of colour). In terms of addressing racism in the UK, it does largely have to be about changing attitudes among white people - for the simple reason that white people are the dominant majority. But yeah, we should do it together - none of that poop where one group is singled out as problematic and has to go to specialist citizenship classes. It isn’t my fault I’m the same colour as the majority of those that need most help with this issue, and their views and actions shouldn’t reflect on me as an individual or place a burden on me.

Sal Paradise wrote:

I disagree - the problem is the cultural differences are insurmountable and getting wider as the ethnic communities grew and gain confidence. As I have said before who sold the slaves? Their inhumanity to each other e.g. honour killings, sharia law, their views on homosexuality etc smacks of cultures that haven't been capable of moving on.

That’s an interesting grab bag. Certainly the White Anglosphere is a long, long, LONG way from being alone in working through its cultural baggage. But equally it doesn’t always do a brilliant job of moving on either - Confederate flags and yearnings for lost Empire and deference from darker folk, for example. You just have to try to take forward the good and leave behind the bad - which’ll often be a subjective judgement. But, we’d all agree, I’m sure that racism, despite its prevalence, is stupid and best left behind us. I mean, look at examples elsewhere in the world that don’t even involve white people and try to rationalise them. Fundamentally they are the same thing, and fundamentally they’re as ridiculous as they horrible.

Re: US Presidential election 2020 : Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:37 pm  

Mild Rover wrote:

We’re all responsible for our actions as individuals, and the same rules and judgements should apply, irrespective of colour. And tbf, that is all anybody is asking for (well, apart from banning the coco pops monkey and what have you - some individual people’s words deserve to be judged as stupid, irrespective of colour). In terms of addressing racism in the UK, it does largely have to be about changing attitudes among white people - for the simple reason that white people are the dominant majority. But yeah, we should do it together - none of that poop where one group is singled out as problematic and has to go to specialist citizenship classes. It isn’t my fault I’m the same colour as the majority of those that need most help with this issue, and their views and actions shouldn’t reflect on me as an individual or place a burden on me.

That’s an interesting grab bag. Certainly the White Anglosphere is a long, long, LONG way from being alone in working through its cultural baggage. But equally it doesn’t always do a brilliant job of moving on either - Confederate flags and yearnings for lost Empire and deference from darker folk, for example. You just have to try to take forward the good and leave behind the bad - which’ll often be a subjective judgement. But, we’d all agree, I’m sure that racism, despite its prevalence, is stupid and best left behind us. I mean, look at examples elsewhere in the world that don’t even involve white people and try to rationalise them. Fundamentally they are the same thing, and fundamentally they’re as ridiculous as they horrible.

Just because you are black doesn't mean the standard of education on offer is any worse, the fact you don't live in an atmosphere that encourages you to make the most of it or a peer group who don't see the opportunity it offers has nothing to do with racism - its culture and only one group can turn that around. Perhaps if the ethnics were prepared to integrate more rather than living in closed communities that would help. Yes we all need to make adjustments but it isn't all one way traffic.

We don't have anything like the baggage from the past - to suggest otherwise is nonsense - we don't swagger around because we had an Empire or we stopped Germany taking over Europe twice. You only have to look at Reading and ask why is it that this happens - it has nothing to with racism.