Re: Wheldon Road - Retail Planning Application! : Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:28 pm  

As I said IA, you have well and truly come out as anti-Cas, why would you otherwise post this stuff on here? As has previously been said, even though the NM project was known to be risky at best, all you did was come out in support of it and blasted the locals (NIMBYS as you referred to them as), now the locals in Castleford have almost to a man woman and child, come out in support of this, so what do you call these people who actually want the development in their own (and not your) backyard? maybe BIMBYS.

Fair enough, you say you live near the NM site and say because of that your voice should be heard OK I'm fine with that, but you do not live near the Wheldon Road site, so why do you have such an interest in trying to derail this?

Re: Wheldon Road - Retail Planning Application! : Thu Jun 02, 2011 2:26 pm  

danny boy1 wrote:

As I said IA, you have well and truly come out as anti-Cas, why would you otherwise post this stuff on here? As has previously been said, even though the NM project was known to be risky at best, all you did was come out in support of it and blasted the locals (NIMBYS as you referred to them as), now the locals in Castleford have almost to a man woman and child, come out in support of this, so what do you call these people who actually want the development in their own (and not your) backyard? maybe BIMBYS.

Fair enough, you say you live near the NM site and say because of that your voice should be heard OK I'm fine with that, but you do not live near the Wheldon Road site, so why do you have such an interest in trying to derail this?

Bloody hell, it is like the Flat Earth Society around here!

Firstly, where else should I post it?

On the Wakey board? - No, this is nothing to do with Wakey, if I had posted my original post there then it would be anti-Cas trolling would it not?

On the VT? - Same applies really, what the hell as it got to do with the rest of RL supporters!

Secondly;

As has previously been said, even though the NM project was known to be risky at best, all you did was come out in support of it and blasted the locals (NIMBYS as you referred to them as),

Hypocrites R Us eh! 'Even though the NM projects was known to be risky at best'... you mean in your opinion? The opinion that the entire planning committee did not share with you but agreed with me and others who support the development! It was statutory referral and as such, always carried a greater than normal risk of a call-in, I and Wakefield City Council officers didn't think it would get called in... but if did. We were all wrong! But will we be wrong again in less than a years time... we will have to see? Either way, it does and will not change my opinion about the suitability of the Newmarket Development.

I continue to call them NIMBY's, because I am not a hypocrite, I think that the majority of objections in relation to Newmarket are for no other than NIMBY reasons. I always acknowledged that the Greenbelt and ecological issues were different and as such justified within the process, both I and Wakefield Council officers think that it is justified... now the planning inspector will decide and he will either agree of disagree! Simple!

Who said I don't support the development of WR and I am trying to derail anything? Not me mate, once again someone makes a sweeping assumption about my opinion on something with which I have not really yet expressed an opinion!!! I will say again, you do have to be careful not to ass/u/me too much!

For the record, I am pro-development (obviously) and as such, when the proposals are publicly issued the likelihood is I will support the development (possibly with some conditions, just like planners!) but equally I have not seen the plans yet, so signing a petition to support something that I have not yet got adequate details of is not going to happen. I will wait, see the plans, form an opinion based on firm proposals and let you know... is that OK with you?

You will note and find that one of the first supporting comments for the reserved matters application for GH was from... me! But apparently I am anti-Cas!

Finally, you still don't get it do you!

I support BOTH Cas and Wakey retaining SL status, I want BOTH Cas and Wakey to get new stadiums but I want both sets of fans to wake up and smell the coffee!!! I think this petition is distracting Cas fans from what they should really be doing at this stage (the petition should come when Opus actually MAKE an application, after July!), putting pressure on the RFL to give both clubs another three years to get this sorted. I am trying to make you and others realise that while RW has to play the smoke and mirrors game (as AG and JE do too) to some extent, you don't have to and if anything it might be the biggest mistake Cas fans make!

What happens if Cas get kicked out ahead of Wakey... who will RW blame... the council now of course... it will be everyone else's fault except his and the clubs... he is covering is ass and taking risks, he has no choice in many ways, but the fans have a choice... what is yours?

It might work... but what if it doesn't??? Does a 15 team league seem a better idea... when you are not in the 14 team one?

This supermarket is, as I have said before, very likley to happen... but if you think it is going to be in the next 2 to 3 years, never mind 12 months, you are kidding yourselves. This proposal, has nearly as many issues as Newmarket and those issues will need to be addressed, discussed and resolved and compromised on, before this gets planning.... which I think it will

Like I have said... the Ostrich pen is that way >

Re: Wheldon Road - Retail Planning Application! : Thu Jun 02, 2011 3:24 pm  

Inflatable_Armadillo wrote:

What happens if Cas get kicked out ahead of Wakey... who will RW blame... the council now of course... it will be everyone else's fault except his and the clubs... he is covering is ass and taking risks, he has no choice in many ways, but the fans have a choice... what is yours?

Perhaps you'd like to set up a meeting with him and tell him exactly this. The club phone number is 01977 518007. Get an appointment and go in and speak to him man-to-man. Tell him you could do his job better than him while you're at it, that you're an expert in all things to do with planning and that you can show both him and Opus exactly where it is they're going wrong.

This will serve two purposes:
(1) You'll come out feeling a bit less superior than you did when you went in.
(2) It will stop you coming on here and spouting puerile garbage like this on the forums.

Don't judge other people by the way that you'd behave.

Re: Wheldon Road - Retail Planning Application! : Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:04 pm  

IA, I really don't think you are helping matters by coming on here and rubbishing the petition, the people of Castleford are firmly behind this and it's in their back yard, it is their way of informing the council that they wish this development to go ahead.
I fail to see what purpose is served by you continually knocking it? What axe do you have to grind, especially if you think it will go ahead anyway, the petition is asking the council to make the planning process a priority when the application is submitted, Opus will have dotted the i's and crossed the t's when the plans are submitted, they are experts in this kind of development and it's not a matter of trying to bulldoze plans through that are not in the interest of the Castleford public. This development offers a fantastic opportunity to a part of town that has been allowed to be run down, it is within easy walking distance of Carlton Street, it will open up the riverside and some of the planned investment is to improve the infrastructure at that end of town, it really is a win win situation for the town.

On the other matter of numbers in Superleague, I honestly believe we should have a 16 (not 15) team Superleague, I believe it would eventually lead to a better international team, with more English players playing at a higher level on a regular basis, we've all seen what John Kear has done with players not thought to be good enough to make it at Superleague level, those players have definitely raised their game whilst at Wakey and appear to be improving all the time. However, I don't think the RFL will increase the number of teams, but reckon this is mainly a matter of current Superleague teams not wanting to accept a smaller share of the pot, rather than the other arguments that are bandied about of there not being sufficient talent to go around.

Re: Wheldon Road - Retail Planning Application! : Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:32 pm  

Georgie Best on a Bloomer wrote:

Perhaps you'd like to set up a meeting with him and tell him exactly this. The club phone number is 01977 518007. Get an appointment and go in and speak to him man-to-man. Tell him you could do his job better than him while you're at it, that you're an expert in all things to do with planning and that you can show both him and Opus exactly where it is they're going wrong.

This will serve two purposes:
(1) You'll come out feeling a bit less superior than you did when you went in.
(2) It will stop you coming on here and spouting puerile garbage like this on the forums.

Don't judge other people by the way that you'd behave.

To be fair, your have a point. On reading that back it looks like I being very critical of RW and as I have said before, I understand why RW is doing exactly what he is doing and in many ways, if I were in his position (which I am very glad I am not) I think I would possible do some of the same things. (The RFL are my real issue and I will explain why later). However, I also think that in trying to present the best possible case to the RFL and the public at large he, like all good politicians, has to spin things to present the best possible case and that often means only presenting half the truth, not lying, but telling only half the story. The problem with that is, this not like most business, the business of sport includes fans, fans to whom supporting their team, local rivalry and passion for their team, and the game, trump everything.

The issue here is what are RW's choices and I would go one step further and say, what choice have the RFL really given RW, which is the real issue for me? I think the answer is no other choice than the course he is taking, but that also means telling the very people who care passionately about your business only part of the real situation... and that is the rub.

If RW came out and was honest about what I understand the real story is (which, I admit I could still be wrong about) which is that Opus stand a good chance of pulling this off longer term but this is not going to be done overnight and could well take well into the next franchise period to sort, but the best option to financial fund a new stadium is to realise a commercial sale value for WR and this is THE best current option, I think the fans would be happy with that. Lets face it, some of the fans do know that this is probably the real story anyway! However, if he says this then is he, under the current franchise tension and fears created by the RFL and this whole sorry process, scoring an own try and casting doubt over the strength of Castleford's bid. Truthful, yes? Wise, almost certainly no!

This is where I morally start to struggle and the reason I sat on my original post for a couple of days. However, I personally think that this is coming down to such minor things that if someone does get kicked out, it will be for reasons that I consider to be paper thin between these two great clubs. I really do have issues with this and that is the reason I have posted the information I have. The latest stuff about the petition is just a genuine thoughts I had and because that has been done by the fans (the bit about it being put before the full council if you reach 15k) for the fans I just thought someone should know. The problem then for me is everyone then comes on pulling me personally apart, so I have to constantly defend my position, which remains unchanged, and that end up in conflict with certain other posters... just like this one, because they can't see past this petty Cas v Wakey argument!

I think Cas and Wakey fans should really be putting their efforts into taking their case to the RFL to give them another three years, by which time both clubs should be in new grounds or well down the road of being in one.

I think a petition of 30k people to the RFL pressuring the RFL and other clubs (and their supporters) to keep both clubs in would be a better use of 'fans' energy. By all means come back to the petition for WR, but between now and July, I think you both have the wrong focus... sorry!

Finally, as for showing Opus where they are going wrong, I don't think they are doing anything wrong at all... not quite sure you think, I think they are? Remember, I do get paid for working with and by organisations like Opus for professional advice, although not specifically in the planning field, so I would have every faith in them (just like I have in Yorkcourt) to get the best possible deal for themselves and Cas if mutually beneficial.

Re: Wheldon Road - Retail Planning Application! : Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:52 pm  

So IA you're still continuing to rubbish it when in fact, in the post above, you've practically admitted you know zip all like the majority of us. You're just second guessing everything and what really gripes me is that you're spinning things negatively.

I do consider you to be a good poster but surely reading back your own posts you can see why people are stating you have an agenda, an axe to grind. Why don't you actually take your time to speak to Opus who are driving this project, not RW. Maybe then, rather than being opposed (in a fashion) you may realise the benefits and become supportive of the scheme.

Additionally, I don't think the petition would have been organised, endorsed and supported by the club and publicised if it served no purpose.

Re: Wheldon Road - Retail Planning Application! : Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:53 pm  

danny boy1 wrote:

IA, I really don't think you are helping matters by coming on here and rubbishing the petition, the people of Castleford are firmly behind this and it's in their back yard, it is their way of informing the council that they wish this development to go ahead.
I fail to see what purpose is served by you continually knocking it? What axe do you have to grind, especially if you think it will go ahead anyway, the petition is asking the council to make the planning process a priority when the application is submitted, Opus will have dotted the i's and crossed the t's when the plans are submitted, they are experts in this kind of development and it's not a matter of trying to bulldoze plans through that are not in the interest of the Castleford public. This development offers a fantastic opportunity to a part of town that has been allowed to be run down, it is within easy walking distance of Carlton Street, it will open up the riverside and some of the planned investment is to improve the infrastructure at that end of town, it really is a win win situation for the town.

On the other matter of numbers in Superleague, I honestly believe we should have a 16 (not 15) team Superleague, I believe it would eventually lead to a better international team, with more English players playing at a higher level on a regular basis, we've all seen what John Kear has done with players not thought to be good enough to make it at Superleague level, those players have definitely raised their game whilst at Wakey and appear to be improving all the time. However, I don't think the RFL will increase the number of teams, but reckon this is mainly a matter of current Superleague teams not wanting to accept a smaller share of the pot, rather than the other arguments that are bandied about of there not being sufficient talent to go around.

Danny - I am not rubbishing the petition or any petition, for gods sake, I (and others) spent the whole of January and February focussing our time on organising public meetings and collecting 3000 Statements of Support for Newmarket. That all said, please remember, this isn't a numbers game per-say, I keep telling people this even though I have ended up reluctantly playing the game myself! One genuinely valid (in planning terms) set of objections or equally supporting comments presented by only one person, outweighs any number of people objecting/supporting with less valid reasons! The question here is do WMDC planners have a point about the issues they are raising and asking Opus to go away and look carefully at? If they don't look carefully at these things, will Asda and Morrisons (and even a planning inspector ultimatley?) drive a huge supermarket delivery through any obvious holes in this plan... of course they will!

I also just picked up on something Casmania said on a post on the other forum about this being debated in front of the full council if they got 15k. This suddenly set alarm bells ringing and I thought, hang on, I am not sure that can be right... which it turns out I am probably correct about! The thing about that is I suspect Casmania or one of the Cas supporter organisations thinks that might be the case, and now people posted up the WMDC guidelines, it is clear why they got that impression. What happen at the end of June when the council do turn around and say, actually, we can't debate this for legal reasons, but thanks, we will pass it on to planning!!! You might as well get the council legal team to advise you now if my understanding is correct, and if it is, keep the petition open until the planning actual goes into WMDC later this year!!!

Re: Wheldon Road - Retail Planning Application! : Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:56 pm  

Fully wrote:

So IA you're still continuing to rubbish it when in fact, in the post above, you've practically admitted you know zip all like the majority of us. You're just second guessing everything and what really gripes me is that you're spinning things negatively.

I do consider you to be a good poster but surely reading back your own posts you can see why people are stating you have an agenda, an axe to grind. Why don't you actually take your time to speak to Opus who are driving this project, not RW. Maybe then, rather than being opposed (in a fashion) you may realise the benefits and become supportive of the scheme.

Additionally, I don't think the petition would have been organised, endorsed and supported by the club and publicised if it served no purpose.

Arghhhhh.... I am not rubbishing it... I do think you and others are focusing CURRENTLY on the wrong things but that is my only major point of difference, and it is just my opinion. As for not knowing anything, I know more than most but admit I am filling in some gaps, like everyone. I know what was said at the meeting, from someone who was there (there I said it... pleased now). I know who Opus's 'proposed' end user client is, I know quite a few of the consultants already working on and others who submitted fee proposals for the scheme, I even know how big the supermarket is to the nearest sq ft retail area... do you?

I don't have any issues with Opus and in future months I suspect they may well contact me, because we are on certain list that they will be given by their proposed end user client. I am not unsupportive of the scheme... although I find it difficult to fully support something I have not yet seen, the only point I am trying to get across is that this will most probably not take months but years to bring to fruition!

On your final point, I don't think the petition is pointless, but you do raise and interesting point about the clubs support of it! Firstly, why would they not support it, Wakey supported much of our effort as best they could for the Statements... why say no? More importantly, this does RW a huge favour with the RFL bid, he will exploit this opportunity for all it is worth, and quite rightly so, but will the decision come down to more than positive PR... possibly, possibly not... I wish I knew!

Re: Wheldon Road - Retail Planning Application! : Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:36 pm  

Inflatable_Armadillo wrote:

To be fair, your have a point. On reading that back it looks like I being very critical of RW and as I have said before, I understand why RW is doing exactly what he is doing and in many ways, if I were in his position (which I am very glad I am not) I think I would possible do some of the same things.

It didn't look like you were being critical, it was a childish outburst, slagging him off for something he hasn't done. He might put a positive spin on things, but he's never in the past gone around blaming everyone but himself.

Inflatable_Armadillo wrote:

(The RFL are my real issue and I will explain why later). However, I also think that in trying to present the best possible case to the RFL and the public at large he, like all good politicians, has to spin things to present the best possible case and that often means only presenting half the truth, not lying, but telling only half the story. The problem with that is, this not like most business, the business of sport includes fans, fans to whom supporting their team, local rivalry and passion for their team, and the game, trump everything.

So now tell me something I don't know. Whether we like it or not, this is 21st Century business, image is everything, style matters more than substance.

Inflatable_Armadillo wrote:

The issue here is what are RW's choices and I would go one step further and say, what choice have the RFL really given RW, which is the real issue for me? I think the answer is no other choice than the course he is taking, but that also means telling the very people who care passionately about your business only part of the real situation... and that is the rub.

If RW came out and was honest about what I understand the real story is (which, I admit I could still be wrong about) which is that Opus stand a good chance of pulling this off longer term but this is not going to be done overnight and could well take well into the next franchise period to sort, but the best option to financial fund a new stadium is to realise a commercial sale value for WR and this is THE best current option, I think the fans would be happy with that. Lets face it, some of the fans do know that this is probably the real story anyway! However, if he says this then is he, under the current franchise tension and fears created by the RFL and this whole sorry process, scoring an own try and casting doubt over the strength of Castleford's bid. Truthful, yes? Wise, almost certainly no!

In brief you're saying that telling people the whole truth would consign the club to the fate of Ratners.

Inflatable_Armadillo wrote:

This is where I morally start to struggle and the reason I sat on my original post for a couple of days. However, I personally think that this is coming down to such minor things that if someone does get kicked out, it will be for reasons that I consider to be paper thin between these two great clubs. I really do have issues with this and that is the reason I have posted the information I have. The latest stuff about the petition is just a genuine thoughts I had and because that has been done by the fans (the bit about it being put before the full council if you reach 15k) for the fans I just thought someone should know. The problem then for me is everyone then comes on pulling me personally apart, so I have to constantly defend my position, which remains unchanged, and that end up in conflict with certain other posters... just like this one, because they can't see past this petty Cas v Wakey argument!

BUT, you only know part of the detail so the most you can post is only part of the detail. Yet above you're criticising RW for only telling people part of the detail. That seems to be very hypocritical. Also, you're saying that you feel it's unwise for the club to make all the details public, and that it could affect the franchise process. So you then go and post information on a public forum that you feel would be detrimental to the club, and try to pass this off as some kind of public service. In other words, you don't care a jot about Cas's franchise bid, because you've considered what you've done and done it knowing that it would be detrimental to the club. That's not exactly the act of a philanthropist, is it?

Inflatable_Armadillo wrote:

I think Cas and Wakey fans should really be putting their efforts into taking their case to the RFL to give them another three years, by which time both clubs should be in new grounds or well down the road of being in one.

I think a petition of 30k people to the RFL pressuring the RFL and other clubs (and their supporters) to keep both clubs in would be a better use of 'fans' energy. By all means come back to the petition for WR, but between now and July, I think you both have the wrong focus... sorry!

The RFL will have to take the clubs by their franchise bids. Anything else would be seen by whichever club loses its franchise as unfair, and could lead to all manner of trouble for the RFL. Fans' petitions should have nothing to do with it. If they did, the franchising system is just a joke. What's the point of spending all that time and money doing a costed business plan if a large number signatures can change the outcome? And don't spin me the usual line about "This is the RFL we're talking about here." I'm not saying what WILL happen, I'm saying what SHOULD happen. The final decision should be based on the franchise bids and will be scrutinised closely by the lawyers of the team that loses its licence, you can be sure of that.

Inflatable_Armadillo wrote:

Finally, as for showing Opus where they are going wrong, I don't think they are doing anything wrong at all... not quite sure you think, I think they are? Remember, I do get paid for working with and by organisations like Opus for professional advice, although not specifically in the planning field, so I would have every faith in them (just like I have in Yorkcourt) to get the best possible deal for themselves and Cas if mutually beneficial.

I was just being sarcastic there. TBH I don't really know what you do but I do know that you're not au fait with all the details of this case and that your little pot-shot at RW finding someone to blame showed up your inadequate knowledge of the people concerned. RW has not gone scapegoating people in the past, and if things do go wrong and we don't get a franchise, he's more likely to try to put a positive spin on it rather than blaming the council.

Yours was a childish outburst about someone you clearly don't know and had no place in your post. You go on about "morally starting to struggle" with how the situation is being delivered to the fans, and then you have the audacity to start putting in your four-pennorth when you actually know much less than the club do, and then start slagging off the CEO for no good reason.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Re: Wheldon Road - Retail Planning Application! : Thu Jun 02, 2011 7:48 pm  

Inflatable_Armadillo wrote:

Having read the full guidelines, although the council should strictly reject the petition, I don't think they will do that as it make them look unreasonable.... and it would be I think as well.

I think they will actual just write back to the lead petitioner saying that the matter can't be debated by the full council for legal and regulatory reason as it relates to planning which has it's own national legal process. As such the council will pass the petition on to the Head of Planning, either supporting the application, if it is already gone when the petition is submitted or in 'anticipation' of a future application. It will be then part of the planning process and be debated by the planning committee when the application comes before them at some point in the future.

Right, I have now had the opportunity to read the link. I disagree. The petition is not asking for them to input on the planning process. The petition is a whole different entity to the planning process. What the petition can do is influence the Council opinion on the land usage of Wheldon Road and in particular The Probiz Coliseum. This means that, in the same vein the LDF was changed for Wakefield, I presume that the land use for Wheldon Road could be changed so that is acceptable for retail usage. It would have nothing to do with the planning application in any way shape or form.