Re: Wheldon Road - Retail Planning Application! : Thu Jun 02, 2011 7:58 pm  

Inflatable_Armadillo wrote:

Arghhhhh.... I am not rubbishing it... I do think you and others are focusing CURRENTLY on the wrong things but that is my only major point of difference, and it is just my opinion. As for not knowing anything, I know more than most but admit I am filling in some gaps, like everyone. I know what was said at the meeting, from someone who was there (there I said it... pleased now). I know who Opus's 'proposed' end user client is, I know quite a few of the consultants already working on and others who submitted fee proposals for the scheme, I even know how big the supermarket is to the nearest sq ft retail area... do you?

No, but then again I have never said I did know the full details. But what I am not doing is hearing second hand information, listening to someone elses interpretation of that and then attempting to fill in the gaps. What I have said, and will continue to say, is that I believe that this project will not just be beneficial for Castleford Tigers but for the whole of Castleford town centre. It needs money spent on it because, in my opinion, Castleford town centre is derelict, rundown, decrepid and in elements still Victorian.

I don't have any issues with Opus and in future months I suspect they may well contact me, because we are on certain list that they will be given by their proposed end user client. I am not unsupportive of the scheme... although I find it difficult to fully support something I have not yet seen, the only point I am trying to get across is that this will most probably not take months but years to bring to fruition!

All the more reason for you to support it at the end of the day. If it benefits you (and the organisation you work for - I believe you are/were the MD of some Timber-related company?) Years in your opinion, Opus think not and you keep relaying back to the door of Castleford Tigers but it is not Castleford Tigers driving it. It is Opus and Palmer Capital so ultimately, RW can only support it because at the end of the day the planning application will trigger the full funding for our new stadium.

On your final point, I don't think the petition is pointless, but you do raise and interesting point about the clubs support of it! Firstly, why would they not support it, Wakey supported much of our effort as best they could for the Statements... why say no? More importantly, this does RW a huge favour with the RFL bid, he will exploit this opportunity for all it is worth, and quite rightly so, but will the decision come down to more than positive PR... possibly, possibly not... I wish I knew!

Wakey did the statements of support because of the NIMBY (as you refer to them) opposition that dwarfed the Wakefield support as much as you detract from it by the fact they have the same argument and the stats/figures provided. That was a necessary course of action to try and get the PI to support Newmarket. The petition is completely different. And why shouldn't RW exploit this? It provides huge benefits to Cas Tigers and you're forgetting that Saviles will have done their research on these issues so the RFL will be in touch with the current information. I may even suspect that Saviles will have met the relevant parties involved before reporting back to the RFL.

Re: Wheldon Road - Retail Planning Application! : Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:26 am  

IA - A simple question - It is widely acknowledged that either us or Wakey are for the chop, who would you prefer to 'survive'?

Don't give me the flannel about wanting both teams to stop up or about the unfairness of the criteria and franchise process, just choose one or the other.

Re: Wheldon Road - Retail Planning Application! : Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:20 am  

ParanoidAndroid wrote:

IA - A simple question - It is widely acknowledged that either us or Wakey are for the chop, who would you prefer to 'survive'?

Don't give me the flannel about wanting both teams to stop up or about the unfairness of the criteria and franchise process, just choose one or the other.

Of course he'd want W*key to survive the chop ahead of us. Their fans treat him like a messiah for a start!

Re: Wheldon Road - Retail Planning Application! : Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:34 am  

Georgie Best on a Bloomer wrote:

It didn't look like you were being critical, it was a childish outburst, slagging him off for something he hasn't done. He might put a positive spin on things, but he's never in the past gone around blaming everyone but himself.

I don't think it was a childish outburst, I was overly and unnecessarily critical, and I acknowldge that and I am big enough to say so!

So now tell me something I don't know. Whether we like it or not, this is 21st Century business, image is everything, style matters more than substance.

Can't disagree with the sentiment but in my experience, within my sector, businesses that are too much image and not enough substance don't last long. However, good PR is important and you can't say RW is not a good PR man!

In brief you're saying that telling people the whole truth would consign the club to the fate of Ratners.

Sort of, although Ratner, lets remember, used that same joke several times in several speeches before the 'fatal' one and his mistake was underestimating the power of the ever more influential (at that time) tabloid papers. I am not encouraging or expecting RW to be 100% honest, but I am not sure why the fans of both clubs don't work the third angle of talking up keeping both clubs. If they don't understand the likley outcome then possibly one set of fans may regret not thinking about that option!

BUT, you only know part of the detail so the most you can post is only part of the detail. Yet above you're criticising RW for only telling people part of the detail. That seems to be very hypocritical. Also, you're saying that you feel it's unwise for the club to make all the details public, and that it could affect the franchise process. So you then go and post information on a public forum that you feel would be detrimental to the club, and try to pass this off as some kind of public service. In other words, you don't care a jot about Cas's franchise bid, because you've considered what you've done and done it knowing that it would be detrimental to the club. That's not exactly the act of a philanthropist, is it?

I know a large proportion of the information on both stadium projects, whether you believe me or my sources or not, I do and this thread is just about that. You might be right, when it comes to all the other criteria I know very little but either way, Cas and Wakefield bids would appear to me to be stronger than both Salford and Crusaders, other than on the stadium front... would you not agree?

As I said, and said lots of time before if you care to search my posts, I find it hard to be overly critical of RW (and do regret being so above) but equally can I say, many Cas fans appear to have short memory's!!! It would not be hard to post half a dozen or more articles of RW claiming this that and the other, which subsequently all turned out to be half-truths. The ground is SOLD for one, would only be half the truth would it not?

When you accuse me of posting something that is detrimental to the 'club' you show your bias (which is fine BTW, don't have a problem with that) because you view this as putting Cas down over Wakefield! You see as someone who supports neither club, I don't think that, I think it sets the record straight and actual shows exactly what I think it does show... that Wakefield and Cas are at least 18 months away from being in new stadiums and that kicking either of them out now would be plain stupid and possibly jeopardise those projects. You and others are accusing me of being anti-Cas but you do that because my posts actual reveal a truer picture of the situation and quite frankly, you don't like the answer. Well, the truth often hurts!

The RFL will have to take the clubs by their franchise bids. Anything else would be seen by whichever club loses its franchise as unfair, and could lead to all manner of trouble for the RFL. Fans' petitions should have nothing to do with it. If they did, the franchising system is just a joke. What's the point of spending all that time and money doing a costed business plan if a large number signatures can change the outcome? And don't spin me the usual line about "This is the RFL we're talking about here." I'm not saying what WILL happen, I'm saying what SHOULD happen. The final decision should be based on the franchise bids and will be scrutinised closely by the lawyers of the team that loses its licence, you can be sure of that.

You call my a hypocrite yet you say fans petitions should have nothing to do with the franchise process and say if they did, the system is a joke... but clearly think that the planning process is different and a petition is fine??? Hmmm, double standards?

I refer to my point above, what is Savills report going to say. I understand that as of only a few weeks ago, Savills had not spoken to lots of key individuals on both sides that they probably should have spoken to and that the RFL have sent Savills back to dig deeper at both clubs. What will Ian Thompson (they should really speak to him, if they haven't then the RFL and Savills are beyond stupid!) tell them if they speak to him... I know what I think he will say and I think that the answer is at best going to be you are both in the same boat and at worst, Cas are even longer away from a ground than Wakey... so what then?

I was just being sarcastic there. TBH I don't really know what you do but I do know that you're not au fait with all the details of this case and that your little pot-shot at RW finding someone to blame showed up your inadequate knowledge of the people concerned. RW has not gone scapegoating people in the past, and if things do go wrong and we don't get a franchise, he's more likely to try to put a positive spin on it rather than blaming the council.

Yours was a childish outburst about someone you clearly don't know and had no place in your post. You go on about "morally starting to struggle" with how the situation is being delivered to the fans, and then you have the audacity to start putting in your four-pennorth when you actually know much less than the club do, and then start slagging off the CEO for no good reason.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

OK, OK, let it go, you were right, I was wrong and regret it but I also refer to RW and previous media reports above!!!

Well, in July you will probably being doing one or the other and the really sad news is that so will Wakey fans. I just wish you would both be laughing, but unless you all take your heads out of the sand one of you will be crying. You just hope it's not you right.... but what if it is... will you regret not doing something different?

Re: Wheldon Road - Retail Planning Application! : Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:48 am  

Fully wrote:

Right, I have now had the opportunity to read the link. I disagree. The petition is not asking for them to input on the planning process. The petition is a whole different entity to the planning process. What the petition can do is influence the Council opinion on the land usage of Wheldon Road and in particular The Probiz Coliseum. This means that, in the same vein the LDF was changed for Wakefield, I presume that the land use for Wheldon Road could be changed so that is acceptable for retail usage. It would have nothing to do with the planning application in any way shape or form.

Bloody hell Fully, for an aspiring journalist, you can be daft sometimes.

I will say this again for the hard of understanding.... it can't be seen to be allowed to influence anyone at all on the planning committee. The petition is designed to influence people, you can use the media to bring it to light and make it public of course (so they will know via those outlets), but you can't demand WMDC to stick it front of a bunch of people who about 35% of whom serve another on a committee that it members have legal responsibilities to remain as impartial and objective as possible on! Opus and the club have publicly announced their intention to lodge a planning application on this site, the petition supports the principle of developing this land into a supermarket... of course it is planning issue you nugget!

Secondly, the area has been recommended to be re-designated in the LDF already mate, to a special development zone. That is just fine! Thirdly, you once again you show your ignorance of planning and the LDF, you can't designate land in the LDF for 'retail' is is not a category for lots of reasons I won't bore you with.

Re: Wheldon Road - Retail Planning Application! : Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:56 am  

Re: Wheldon Road - Retail Planning Application! : Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:58 am  

Bonzo wrote:

:SLEEPY:

Re: Wheldon Road - Retail Planning Application! : Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:14 am  

Fully wrote:

What I have said, and will continue to say, is that I believe that this project will not just be beneficial for Castleford Tigers but for the whole of Castleford town centre. It needs money spent on it because, in my opinion, Castleford town centre is derelict, rundown, decrepid and in elements still Victorian.

You are right, but this is the point that will take time to resolve. Your opinion is that it will, great, so is Opus and the club.... and probably, even mine (again, no plans, must reserve judgement). The planners, bless them, are not as convinced and think it might do partially or even completely the opposite. They have told Opus to go away and build a convincing case, telling them they sort of information they are going to need. This information will just take time to put together, retail impact assessment, traffic impact assessments, travel plans, city centre link plans and the list goes on and on. I am not putting down your reasons and the basis of your argument (looks familar eh, wonder were simialr arguments were used??? ), far from it, this is what Opus and the club think and are trying to build a case about.

All the more reason for you to support it at the end of the day. If it benefits you (and the organisation you work for - I believe you are/were the MD of some Timber-related company?) Years in your opinion, Opus think not and you keep relaying back to the door of Castleford Tigers but it is not Castleford Tigers driving it. It is Opus and Palmer Capital so ultimately, RW can only support it because at the end of the day the planning application will trigger the full funding for our new stadium.

Hmmm, I have been accused by many on the other forum for only supporting Newmarket because I must be getting something from it, which is untrue, but now you want me to support something which I might get something from but have yet to see full details of to fully understand their proposals? Sorry, I am not a hypocrite! I suspect I will support it, but will tell you when I see the plans. As for the other forum, all those poster slagging me off supporting something for the same reasons they are all using to support the WR application.... clearly they are all getting something from it.... why else would they support it... irony overload from some posters!

As for Opus, do you think they think are really bothered about how long it takes? They are currently bothered because RW and the club is bothered, that is all. This is good news for Cas BTW, they are in this for the long-hall and whatever happens in July, this will go on until resolved, of that I have no doubts. RW is concerned about time, Opus are happy to help RW of course and will move things as quick as they can but if it takes 3 to 5 years and they win out in the end, which I also have no doubts they will, they won't care.

Please see Yorkcourt and Newmarket as a fine example!

Wakey did the statements of support because of the NIMBY (as you refer to them) opposition that dwarfed the Wakefield support as much as you detract from it by the fact they have the same argument and the stats/figures provided. That was a necessary course of action to try and get the PI to support Newmarket. The petition is completely different. And why shouldn't RW exploit this? It provides huge benefits to Cas Tigers and you're forgetting that Saviles will have done their research on these issues so the RFL will be in touch with the current information. I may even suspect that Saviles will have met the relevant parties involved before reporting back to the RFL.

Well, no, we did the Statements of Support, the club paid for the photocopying and postage. In answer to your question, we did the Statements because the petition that SWAG did came under some fire, some valid, some not and therefore we wanted to demonstrate that the NIMBY's were the minority. We did this, they still can't come close to matching our totals, we have more local people (within a three mile radius) supporting it as well. They are the minority, despite what they will tell you!

I have said already, I am not sure Savills report will be as glowing as you think it might be... not by a long way!

Re: Wheldon Road - Retail Planning Application! : Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:18 am  

ParanoidAndroid wrote:

IA - A simple question - It is widely acknowledged that either us or Wakey are for the chop, who would you prefer to 'survive'?

Don't give me the flannel about wanting both teams to stop up or about the unfairness of the criteria and franchise process, just choose one or the other.

The answer is both... sorry, I don't support either club, so don't have to carry the same baggage here as you!

If the question was Leeds v Cas, or Leeds v Wakey, my answer would be Leeds... just like yours would be Cas.

BTW - Crusaders, if one has really got to go!

Hope that helps!

Re: Wheldon Road - Retail Planning Application! : Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:20 am  

Dead Man Walking wrote:

:SLEEPY:

I would just like to thanks the mods for their insightful input into the debate... am I boring you? I am quite good at it I am afraid... bit like SmokeyTA!