Re: ROBBED AGAIN : Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:06 pm  

The relevant law is Section 10, Law 2 relating to accidental knock-on. This discussion seems to be surrounding people's interpretations of the word 'regains' within this law. If a player grounds the ball cleanly after having previously knocked-on accidentally, are they deemed to have regained the ball?

Laws of the Game Section 10 - Knock on and Forward Pass wrote:

Deliberate 1. A player shall be penalised if he deliberately knocks on or passes forward.

Accidental 2. If, after knocking-on accidentally, the player knocking-on regains or kicks the ball before it touches the ground, a goal post, cross bar or an opponent, then play shall be allowed to proceed. Otherwise play shall stop and a scrum shall be formed except after the fifth play-the-ball.

Charge-down 3. To charge-down a kick is permissible and is not a knock-on.

Heading the ball 4. It is illegal to head the ball in a forward direction.

Knock-on over Goal line
After a player, from the field of play, knocks on into his opponent’s in-goal area and he or a colleague touches down, play is restarted with a scrum where the knock-on occurred, except after a play-the-ball subject to Section 12, Law 10.

My interpretation in this situation is that he hasn't regained it and that in actual fact, the ball touching the ground complete's the knock-on. However there is nothing in the glossary to clarify this, the following may be of assistance though:

Laws of the Game Section 2 - Glossary wrote:

Knock on: means to knock the ball towards the opponents’ dead ball line with hand or arm, while playing at the ball.

In Posession: means to be holding or carrying the ball.

Grounding the ball: means
(a) placing the ball on the ground with hand or hands or
(b) exerting a downward pressure on the ball with hand or arm, the ball itself being on the ground or
(c) dropping on the ball and covering it with the part of the body above the waist and below the neck, the ball itself being on the ground.

Re: ROBBED AGAIN : Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:48 pm  

overthemoon wrote: Like it or not, to the letter of the law Liam Watts did score a try. SECTION 6 SCORING – TRIES AND GOALS Value 1. A try shall count four points. Try and Goal A conversion goal or a penalty goal shall count two points. A drop goal during play shall count one point. Deciding winners 2. (a) The game shall be won by the team scoring the greater number of points. If both teams score an equal number of points, or if both teams fail to score, then the game shall be drawn. Try – How scored 3. A try is scored when:– (a) a player first grounds the ball in his opponents’ in-goal, provided that he is not in touch or touch in-goal or on or over the dead ball line. (b) opposing players simultaneously ground the ball in the in-goal area provided that the attacking player is not in touch or touch in-goal or on or over the dead ball line. Sliding try (c) a tackled player’s momentum carries him into the opponents’ in-goal where he grounds the ball even if the ball has first touched the ground in the field of play but provided that when the ball crosses the goal line the player is not in touch or touch in-goal or on or over the dead ball line. Downward pressure my backside! http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... Episode_5/ 11 mins 10 seconds into it. The ball hits the floor before he makes contact.

overthemoon wrote: Like it or not, to the letter of the law Liam Watts did score a try. SECTION 6 SCORING – TRIES AND GOALS Value 1. A try shall count four points. Try and Goal A conversion goal or a penalty goal shall count two points. A drop goal during play shall count one point. Deciding winners 2. (a) The game shall be won by the team scoring the greater number of points. If both teams score an equal number of points, or if both teams fail to score, then the game shall be drawn. Try – How scored 3. A try is scored when:– (a) a player first grounds the ball in his opponents’ in-goal, provided that he is not in touch or touch in-goal or on or over the dead ball line. (b) opposing players simultaneously ground the ball in the in-goal area provided that the attacking player is not in touch or touch in-goal or on or over the dead ball line. Sliding try (c) a tackled player’s momentum carries him into the opponents’ in-goal where he grounds the ball even if the ball has first touched the ground in the field of play but provided that when the ball crosses the goal line the player is not in touch or touch in-goal or on or over the dead ball line. Downward pressure my backside! http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... Episode_5/ 11 mins 10 seconds into it. The ball hits the floor before he makes contact.

Re: ROBBED AGAIN : Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:06 pm  

The rules still support Liam Watts from what I can gather.

Re: ROBBED AGAIN : Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:54 pm  

Watts definitely is touching the ball before it hits the floor, whether he thought he'd scored or not.

Re: ROBBED AGAIN : Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:08 pm  

That was a definate no try. What a shame the video ref was so blind.

Re: ROBBED AGAIN : Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:41 pm  

what an absolute disgrace of a decision if that was a try why wasn,t ainscough in first half i personally think the dobbins were there for the taking but u seem to switch off same problem as fc have had in the previous two seasons

Re: ROBBED AGAIN : Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:00 pm  

Bonzo wrote:

The relevant law is Section 10, Law 2 relating to accidental knock-on. This discussion seems to be surrounding people's interpretations of the word 'regains' within this law. If a player grounds the ball cleanly after having previously knocked-on accidentally, are they deemed to have regained the ball?

My interpretation in this situation is that he hasn't regained it and that in actual fact, the ball touching the ground complete's the knock-on. However there is nothing in the glossary to clarify this, the following may be of assistance though:

Spot on. There's no way he 'regained' it. I would like to think that for a player to be deemed to have regained control of the ball (to nullify the accidental knock on), the player needs to have sufficient control that enables them to catch and control the ball before touching the ground i.e. in both hands or hand under the ball that prevents contact with the ground. If that is achieved then he then put down for a try.

Re: ROBBED AGAIN : Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:22 pm  

Nev0807 wrote:

Spot on. There's no way he 'regained' it. I would like to think that for a player to be deemed to have regained control of the ball (to nullify the accidental knock on), the player needs to have sufficient control that enables them to catch and control the ball before touching the ground i.e. in both hands or hand under the ball that prevents contact with the ground. If that is achieved then he then put down for a try.

Unfortunately, what you or me or anyone, except the VR, would like to think is irrelevant. A player does not have to be in control of the ball, he just needs to have downward pressure. Whether the law sucks is another matter.

Re: ROBBED AGAIN : Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:26 pm  

tigertot wrote:

Unfortunately, what you or me or anyone, except the VR, would like to think is irrelevant. A player does not have to be in control of the ball, he just needs to have downward pressure. Whether the law sucks is another matter.

Yes that is true for a try but if he knocks on first then it rules out the possibility for a try.

Re: ROBBED AGAIN : Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:30 am  

CHURCHILL wrote:

It is, but we suffered that in the National Rail Final against Leigh a few years back when denied what looked like a perfect try.

Horrible feeling isn't it.

Well, seeing as I'm a Wigan and not a Cas fan, only in the sense that I don't like to see poor decisions deciding matches.