Re: Harlequins bust? : Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:27 pm  

Speedy wrote:

Well what do the so called expansion clubs bring in the way of travelling support to the clubs

Please point me in the direction of where travelling supporters count in the licence criteria? The same can be said of your impact on the attendance at Warrington this year, where the gate was recorded as their worst of the season. Quins, the french and the cottage burners don't bring many, so forward thinking clubs like FC and Wigan MARKET the games....to account for this and as a result, get bumper gates.

Speedy wrote:

why should clubs with thousands of supporters be relegated to the lower leagues

They shouldn't......I think the current figure for quins is three THOUSAND three hundred and ninety four....

Speedy wrote:

for these non proven ventures,

....they aren't non-proven, they are development areas. So, people like you expect 300 London RL Internationals straight away? Fans are an issue.....development is not, neither is the growth the game has experienced in the last 5 years alone down in the south.

Speedy wrote:

When has Sky ever said that it would remove support from Rugby League if these teams are not in.

...they haven't. But the speed at which the SL chairmen readmitted the broncos in 2005 would point to either them all being closet cockneys or them all knowing what side their breads buttered on.

Speedy wrote:

They have had years of free rides in the way of exemptions on players,

....see you really anti expansionist aren't you. How would you expect a London team to find 30 local lads who play league when there wasn't really any network in place? As it is, Quins are now the most British SL club.....I suggest you go and have a look at HKR if you want to discuss exemptions.

Speedy wrote:

years of exemptions of relegation

the french maybe, not us. Unless you can prove it, don't type it...all you do is make yourself look even more marginalised than you are.

Speedy wrote:

and latterly a direct free route into SL without even going through the ranks.

All 3 of the expansion teams got a free ticket.....could be something to do with the expansion of the game from a 1 road past time into a truly national sport....maybe not fair on the likes of Keighly, Widnes and Leigh...but you try making an omlette without breaking a few eggs.

Speedy wrote:

Do i like it do i hell

...get off the fence and tell us what you really think

Speedy wrote:

and it is the insistance of certain people that we have to expand blah blah blah,

The people that count........those who govern the game and have turned it into a profitable organisation as well as those nice chaps at BSkyB (allegedly).

Speedy wrote:

well i agree

no you don't. You are so anti-expansionist it's unbelieveable.......

,

Speedy wrote:

but do it by the correct way.

and your better blue print would be what? 100+ years of the game along the M62 and all people like you can do is point out you have 5,000 more fans than London or Crusaders...you fail to see the irony of your argument...rome wasn't built in a day ( but it did burn down pretty quickly)

Speedy wrote:

If Sl needs to expand then so be it, but only by a level playing field.

...what, as long as Castleford are in SL that's a level playing field

Speedy wrote:

I still stand by what ive said before Good Riddence is my opinion,

and you're entitled to it......even if it shows you up as being a flat earth knuckle dragging whippet keeping pigeon fancying anti expansionist

Speedy wrote:

if you dont like it tough,

...OK.......Whatever you say tough guy

Speedy wrote:

i dont like it that you want them in, but its tough on me as well isnt it.

Not really...you are entitled to your opinion (see above) and others to theirs....no need to get all arsey about i though is there

If Quins go down, you'll get none of this spitefull b0ll0x from us...we know we are lucky to be in SL and we pray every night that David Hughes stays healthy....but I doubt many would be suprised if we did go down a step to CH1.

Re: Harlequins bust? : Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:32 pm  

Tricky2309 wrote:

I can't see the demise of a club who have 2-3k attendances affecting the sale of sky subscriptions

Nothing to do with dishes, everything to do with Advertisers.....not many people want to spend loads of money advertising their product to a small audience....having the French, cockney and welsh element makes the game look more appealing to advertisers.

Towns88 wrote:

To Guttfax, would you follow a London side directed say 50-100 miles away from where they are located now elsewhere with a totally different name? Just curious. Seems a shame if Quins were to fold or what not, seem to be giving youth a chance down there.

Will follow the club where ever they play and whatever they are called. As for the youth, that would then become the RFL's problem. Quins employ a load of community staff....would the RFL be prepared to keep it going? Would it be worth keeping going with no SL team?

Re: Harlequins bust? : Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:34 pm  

gutterfax wrote:

Nothing to do with dishes, everything to do with Advertisers.....not many people want to spend loads of money advertising their product to a small audience....having the French, cockney and welsh element makes the game look more appealing to advertisers.

Will follow the club where ever they play and whatever they are called. As for the youth, that would then become the RFL's problem. Quins employ a load of community staff....would the RFL be prepared to keep it going? Would it be worth keeping going with no SL team?

I hope so.

Re: Harlequins bust? : Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:38 pm  

gutterfax wrote: Please point me in the direction of where travelling supporters count in the licence criteria? The same can be said of your impact on the attendance at Warrington this year, where the gate was recorded as their worst of the season. Have to correct you on that front mate. It was a typo that was replicated by every website. The attendance was actually over 10,000, which is more than a few Wire home games. http://www.warringtonwolves.org/clarkey ... pack--3548

gutterfax wrote: Please point me in the direction of where travelling supporters count in the licence criteria? The same can be said of your impact on the attendance at Warrington this year, where the gate was recorded as their worst of the season. Have to correct you on that front mate. It was a typo that was replicated by every website. The attendance was actually over 10,000, which is more than a few Wire home games. http://www.warringtonwolves.org/clarkey ... pack--3548

Re: Harlequins bust? : Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:23 pm  

Fully wrote: Have to correct you on that front mate. It was a typo that was replicated by every website. The attendance was actually over 10,000, which is more than a few Wire home games. http://www.warringtonwolves.org/clarkey ... pack--3548 2 things here. Firstly, Published figures on SL site, RFL site and pretty much everywhere else say the lower amount, but even if I accept the "over 10,500 fans" comment on one site..........it's still less that Quins attendance Next up......my point was that the away attendances count for nothing, but those clubs who are forward thinking MARKET these games. Wigan, for example attracted their 3rd largest gate of the year this season after their 2 local derbies with Saints and Wire. In 2009, quins game again was their third largest gate after saints and Leeds. Hull FC ran a campaignin 2009 that resulted in their second biggest gate of the year and that was when their season was long over........away fans are not part of the licence application process. Home attendances are and clubs like the 2 above are at the top of that tree because they see the visit of a team with little or no away following as an opportunity........Leeds on the other hand don't bother and I believe miss an opportunity boost their revenue. Put simply, the steward are already being paid, the lightd are already on and the bars are already open........either leave the seats empty or try to get more people in and sell more beer, pies etc...and they might even come back! I am well versed in the attendances of Harlequins RL, probably more than the club themselves and I accept that we have terrible crowds......and something should have been done a lot earlier rather than the club face the possibility of being ejected from SL altogether. If they had marketed themselves properly and had an average of 6,000 they wouldn't need DH to bail them out....they would be breaking even. On the topic of away fans. If they were a licence application criteria.....how would it be monitored. HKR take millions, but in reality and based on 11 years of SL since the 2000 season and using attendances in London as a barometer.....they actually sit 6th on the attendance charts. Castleford 7th....with Wigan, Saints and Leeds the three highest....but guess what....away fans don't count for anything as far as the RFL are concerned

Fully wrote: Have to correct you on that front mate. It was a typo that was replicated by every website. The attendance was actually over 10,000, which is more than a few Wire home games. http://www.warringtonwolves.org/clarkey ... pack--3548 2 things here. Firstly, Published figures on SL site, RFL site and pretty much everywhere else say the lower amount, but even if I accept the "over 10,500 fans" comment on one site..........it's still less that Quins attendance Next up......my point was that the away attendances count for nothing, but those clubs who are forward thinking MARKET these games. Wigan, for example attracted their 3rd largest gate of the year this season after their 2 local derbies with Saints and Wire. In 2009, quins game again was their third largest gate after saints and Leeds. Hull FC ran a campaignin 2009 that resulted in their second biggest gate of the year and that was when their season was long over........away fans are not part of the licence application process. Home attendances are and clubs like the 2 above are at the top of that tree because they see the visit of a team with little or no away following as an opportunity........Leeds on the other hand don't bother and I believe miss an opportunity boost their revenue. Put simply, the steward are already being paid, the lightd are already on and the bars are already open........either leave the seats empty or try to get more people in and sell more beer, pies etc...and they might even come back! I am well versed in the attendances of Harlequins RL, probably more than the club themselves and I accept that we have terrible crowds......and something should have been done a lot earlier rather than the club face the possibility of being ejected from SL altogether. If they had marketed themselves properly and had an average of 6,000 they wouldn't need DH to bail them out....they would be breaking even. On the topic of away fans. If they were a licence application criteria.....how would it be monitored. HKR take millions, but in reality and based on 11 years of SL since the 2000 season and using attendances in London as a barometer.....they actually sit 6th on the attendance charts. Castleford 7th....with Wigan, Saints and Leeds the three highest....but guess what....away fans don't count for anything as far as the RFL are concerned

Re: Harlequins bust? : Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:39 pm  

I accept your point and I'm not one to disagree. However, for me it is a case of both sides of the arguments. The only way individual clubs are going to get stronger is by getting more of both home and away fans through your turnstiles. The big lure of a heartland club over one from outside the M62 corridor is that 3,000 fans coming instead of 30 is the financial aspect. In essence, the heartland clubs would effectively be richer, attendances would look stronger. However, you would lose the national aspect, that growth from outside the traditional regions. It really is a double-edged sword. But I think there is a stretching point. Catalans, Crusaders (although they have brought more this season) and Quins all bring limited crowds. How many more of those sides who bring money to clubs are you going to sacrifice for a club outside the heartlands? Similarly, how much impact does having a London club in Super League affect the TV rights? Nobody knows - it's all hypothetical. However, the brand image of Super League has changed over the course of the last fourteen years. If it was about London being in the elite, I'd still bet that the most of the people living in the South would still watch rugby league and Super League on TV. I think estimating that TV rights would go down is premature. Would losing Man Utd from the Premier League and having someone like - no disrespect to them - Wycombe promoted alter the TV rights for football? Probably. However, in that respect would losing someone like Wigan from Super League affect it more than Harlequins? I don't know. A lot of information to digest and the only people that know are Sky. PS. The RFL's site said 10,577 too....http://www.therfl.co.uk/~therflc/result ... Warrington

I accept your point and I'm not one to disagree. However, for me it is a case of both sides of the arguments. The only way individual clubs are going to get stronger is by getting more of both home and away fans through your turnstiles. The big lure of a heartland club over one from outside the M62 corridor is that 3,000 fans coming instead of 30 is the financial aspect. In essence, the heartland clubs would effectively be richer, attendances would look stronger. However, you would lose the national aspect, that growth from outside the traditional regions. It really is a double-edged sword. But I think there is a stretching point. Catalans, Crusaders (although they have brought more this season) and Quins all bring limited crowds. How many more of those sides who bring money to clubs are you going to sacrifice for a club outside the heartlands? Similarly, how much impact does having a London club in Super League affect the TV rights? Nobody knows - it's all hypothetical. However, the brand image of Super League has changed over the course of the last fourteen years. If it was about London being in the elite, I'd still bet that the most of the people living in the South would still watch rugby league and Super League on TV. I think estimating that TV rights would go down is premature. Would losing Man Utd from the Premier League and having someone like - no disrespect to them - Wycombe promoted alter the TV rights for football? Probably. However, in that respect would losing someone like Wigan from Super League affect it more than Harlequins? I don't know. A lot of information to digest and the only people that know are Sky. PS. The RFL's site said 10,577 too....http://www.therfl.co.uk/~therflc/result ... Warrington

Re: Harlequins bust? : Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:03 am  

Fully wrote: PS. The RFL's site said 10,577 too....http://www.therfl.co.uk/~therflc/result ... Warrington Still less than quins As much as all clubs would love to sell 3,000 tickets to away fans every time they are at home, it isn't going to happen. It is the responsibility of the marketing team at each club to sell as many tickets as possible and that is how it should be. Away fans are a luxury, but in an ideal world, Wigan would sell every seat in the stadium as a season ticket.....if they could. It is their responsibility to fill the stadium....not that of the away team. I am still waiting for a system of how you would monitor the number of away fans? Pre-sale at your home club is one possibility, but what about those who decide on the day and roll up and pay cash? Pretty hard to monitor....and worthless unless it becomes a SL Licence criteria.

Fully wrote: PS. The RFL's site said 10,577 too....http://www.therfl.co.uk/~therflc/result ... Warrington Still less than quins As much as all clubs would love to sell 3,000 tickets to away fans every time they are at home, it isn't going to happen. It is the responsibility of the marketing team at each club to sell as many tickets as possible and that is how it should be. Away fans are a luxury, but in an ideal world, Wigan would sell every seat in the stadium as a season ticket.....if they could. It is their responsibility to fill the stadium....not that of the away team. I am still waiting for a system of how you would monitor the number of away fans? Pre-sale at your home club is one possibility, but what about those who decide on the day and roll up and pay cash? Pretty hard to monitor....and worthless unless it becomes a SL Licence criteria.

Re: Harlequins bust? : Sat Aug 21, 2010 12:55 pm  

Hi Marshman.
Just to answer your query about where Quin's fans live, it is not just restricted to the area around Twickenham.
There are a hardcore "London R.L". (Crusader's, Broncos or Quin's) fans who are passionate about their rugby league & definately "London Till I Die" mentality.
Unfortunately, we number only about 1000-1500 & come from all over the Southern Counties.
For me to get to a home game from Kent, I have to get a bus, then a train into Waterloo & then another train to Twickenham.
About 2 hours travel in all.
There are others from Kent, Colchester & Billericay in Essex who have a longer journey than myself.
So as you can see, we do have a faithful following & are proud to be associated with London Rugby League.
Will see you in the Bootroom tomorrow for a pint. At the last count, I think there may be at least 10 of us travelling up on the train, plus others coming by car.
Hopefully we will give you a good runout & push you close for the win.

Re: Harlequins bust? : Sat Aug 21, 2010 1:47 pm  

Safe journey, BB.

Re: Harlequins bust? : Sat Aug 21, 2010 7:16 pm  

gutterfax wrote: Fully wrote: PS. The RFL's site said 10,577 too....http://www.therfl.co.uk/~therflc/result ... Warrington Still less than quins As much as all clubs would love to sell 3,000 tickets to away fans every time they are at home, it isn't going to happen. It is the responsibility of the marketing team at each club to sell as many tickets as possible and that is how it should be. Away fans are a luxury, but in an ideal world, Wigan would sell every seat in the stadium as a season ticket.....if they could. It is their responsibility to fill the stadium....not that of the away team. Sorry, but IMO the above is a cop out for being one of the poorest away supported clubs! Every fan of the game loves to be at a game where there is a vibrant crowd and atmosphere made up of both home and visiting supporters. In this era of new stadia that is upon us, how lifeless and dull would games be if supporters of every team took the same attitude and approach where only home support is important??? Fortunately they don't! Otherwise the game would have died years ago before TV....let alone SKY was even invented. Instead when new supporters first experienced that bouncing vibrant atmosphere and chanting between home and visiting support...it brought them back to the game time and time again. Why should that stop now? When new young players are coming through the ranks, or kids in the crowd dreaming of representing their team...what sort of crowd atmosphere do you think they want to play in front of??? 7000 home plus 50 visiting fans....or 7000 home plus a strong visiting support?? I know which I'd enjoy the most!! Sadly, we now live in SKY's pocket and all that goes with it where your postcode is more important than your attendance at a game. I'm sure that players play for...and appreciate support on the terraces and as supporters that counts for both home and away games IMO!

gutterfax wrote: Fully wrote: PS. The RFL's site said 10,577 too....http://www.therfl.co.uk/~therflc/result ... Warrington Still less than quins As much as all clubs would love to sell 3,000 tickets to away fans every time they are at home, it isn't going to happen. It is the responsibility of the marketing team at each club to sell as many tickets as possible and that is how it should be. Away fans are a luxury, but in an ideal world, Wigan would sell every seat in the stadium as a season ticket.....if they could. It is their responsibility to fill the stadium....not that of the away team. Sorry, but IMO the above is a cop out for being one of the poorest away supported clubs! Every fan of the game loves to be at a game where there is a vibrant crowd and atmosphere made up of both home and visiting supporters. In this era of new stadia that is upon us, how lifeless and dull would games be if supporters of every team took the same attitude and approach where only home support is important??? Fortunately they don't! Otherwise the game would have died years ago before TV....let alone SKY was even invented. Instead when new supporters first experienced that bouncing vibrant atmosphere and chanting between home and visiting support...it brought them back to the game time and time again. Why should that stop now? When new young players are coming through the ranks, or kids in the crowd dreaming of representing their team...what sort of crowd atmosphere do you think they want to play in front of??? 7000 home plus 50 visiting fans....or 7000 home plus a strong visiting support?? I know which I'd enjoy the most!! Sadly, we now live in SKY's pocket and all that goes with it where your postcode is more important than your attendance at a game. I'm sure that players play for...and appreciate support on the terraces and as supporters that counts for both home and away games IMO!