Re: Eastmond to Bath RU confirmed : Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:07 am  

If you include BJ Mather because he was a junior RU international, then would you also include the likes of Shaun Edwards and Richard Gunn (both dual code junior internationals IIRC)?

Re: Eastmond to Bath RU confirmed : Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:43 am  

tvoc wrote:

What relevance to that point are timescales? ..

Because your original point had no time restriction yet you later introduced one:

tvoc wrote:

I'm not sure the English RFU was such a rich breeding ground for RL although not entirely because of a lack of talent. There was not enough money in RL to tempt them. We tended to pick up the dissaffected, passed over talent rather than top proven International quality, I can't think of one of those..

And because you introduced a timescale when you tried to belittle my list of 8 England dual code Internationals when you stated " Given that in order to recall more than a single handful of Ex England RU Internationals you have had to go back several decades"

tvoc wrote:

I did see it the first time and I weren't overly impressed with it then either.

How can Thomas Holliday be described as a 'dual code International' if he never played Internationally at Rugby League? What was his other International code, quidditch? .

Sorry these 8 dual code Internationals didn't come up to your standards tvoc!

Because he played for the England National Rugby League team. That is why he is known as a dual code International! Fact.

tvoc wrote:

Re Mather - The discussion is supposed to be about ex England Internationals converting to League (I presume most would expect those to be full Internationals rather than including those with only schoolboy honours at the time of crossing the great divide - which would widen the scope) .

Never presume!
Mather was an 18 yr old international who signed for Wigan when 19 yrs old. Most pundits belived he would have quickly gained a full England cap including Wigan RL who believed he was proven International quality. Make no mistake to get into the 18yr old England RU International side is some achievement.

Shaun Edwards captained England schoolboys at Union but did not gain a full England cap because he too signed for Wigan RL on his 17th birthday. Are you saying he too is not of proven International quality?

You cannot dismiss and rubbish England RU's contribution as a breeding ground for League on the premise of a lack of full International England RU caps. This is my point and going off on tangents does not hide the error of your statement.

tvoc wrote:

Are you disputing the Rothmans Rugby League Yearbook and it's chief statistician Ray Fletcher? When did Thomas Holliday play for the GB Rugby League team? You've described him as 'dual code' (twice now) so when was it? .

Well if you are to be believed their records are not complete are they?

I have to repeat Thomas Holliday played for England RL. Are you now saying this is not proven International quality?

tvoc wrote:

You don't know that.

My point is he wasn't a full England RU player before he joined professional Rugby League (and that was basically what the discussion was about) so his inclusion was nothing more than a pointless diversion to bolster a low number. The number of ex-English RU Internationals to play League is still low even with his spurious inclusion. What he went on to achieve in RU Internationally after he left League is also fairly irrelevant to this code..

We have been talking about International quality . You are trying to move the goalposts again. I have already given the reasons for a low conversion for England RU Internationals so this is not the argument.

How can you argue that Mather was not proven International quality when he was an 18 yr old RU International - converted to League at 19 - became a League International - returned to Union and got his full Union International cap. To say other wise makes a nonsense of your definition of quality.

tvoc wrote:

[I'd like to see the stats re the number of International games played to back that assertion up. In 1975 (we'll call it Fielding's golden era) England played 10 games, I'd say that compared pretty favourably to the 4 England played in 2010.
..

Why are you now quoting Union Internationals? Your comment was relating to RL not Union. See your quote below:

tvoc wrote:

As far as making contributions of note for GB (as you claim) I'm not sure any made more than a literal hand full in total. Hardly what many would call 'GB Internationals of note.' Unless the note in question was hastily scribbled on the back of a beer mat during a pub quiz...

My point was in reply to your above comment belittling these dual code Internationals. I repeat there were certainly less Internationals in bygone days. Prove me wrong?

tvoc wrote:

[I'm not knocking Fielding he's at least a genuine 'dual code' International...

Which from my list of 8 dual code Internationals were not genuine? I know there is one who you were unaware of, are the others just ones you don't like then and does this make then not genuine?

tvoc wrote:

[Define two decades and why specifically two decades anyway as opposed to lets say 25 years? You had four decades (70's, 80's, 90's 00's) to come up with five ex-England Internationals and you struggled (and probably failed?) to do that...

I had named 5 England RU Internationals who converted to League from the 70's 80's & 90's which was a challange from totalloiner. Thes players converted in three decades not 4 as you incorrectly stated and I completed the challenge.

tvoc wrote:

[Ex England Internationals either in terms of quantity or quality cannot by and large compare to the value added by the boyos from the Valleys.

[/quote]

Well here we agree. But that was not the main argument was it?

Re: Eastmond to Bath RU confirmed : Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:36 pm  

Forgive me not replying in kind but life's too short.

Re numbers of Internationals in bygone days, I was talking League numbers (we both were - why would I introduce numbers of Union Internationals played when I was talking what the player's achieved in League and whether those deeds were 'of note' as you put it.) I gave an example where Keith Fielding got the opportunity to play in far more than his equivalent would get today, answering that point.

I note you haven't taken the opportunity to back up your assertion that there are more comparable RL Internationals played today either. It's your point back it up with facts. Mick Sullivan in 10 years (1954 to 1963) played 46 Tests for GB. I make that 4.6 a year and that's even if he played in them all which I would find hard to comprehend any player doing. How does that compare?

I said I (that is Rothmans) could be an incomplete record (although Gentleman Jim is on the list) that is why I asked for a time when Holiday or Holliday (you've spelt it two ways so far) played International RL. It should be easier for you to prove something happened rather than I to prove it didn't (at least I've offered a source.) Just post the proof, quote a reference and we can put that one to bed.

To this point your Thomas Holliday bio consists of:

Juan Cornetto wrote:

Thomas Holliday played for Aspatria, captained Cumberland and was capped 7 times for England. He also went on the British Lions tour of South Africa.

None of that sounds to me like League talk. Was there an England RL team in the 20's?


Mather didn't gain a full England RU cap before joining league, no matter what you, or I or any number of good judges may say that is the fact and so cannot be included as a full England International before coming to League. How is that controversial.

Who then are your 5 ex-England full Internationals that crossed to League during a 40, sorry 30 year period 1970 to 1999 inclusive (an average of 1 every 6 years)

Even then it's such a low benchmark as to be almost an irrelevant statistics as a source of future potential RL talent especially when set against the Valleys an area completely foreign to the code where converts were forced to give up much more than their amateur status to make the switch.

__________

BrisbaneRhino wrote:

If you include BJ Mather because he was a junior RU international, then would you also include the likes of Shaun Edwards and Richard Gunn (both dual code junior internationals IIRC)?

Of course you would (and countless others besides) but given the overwhelming bias given to RU in schools, even in the traditional RL heartlands, it would be a fairly meaningless point of reference.

Was top class schoolboy RL available to these youngsters growing up, was it promoted by the staff, was there the infrastructure to encourage participation.

From my own experience it was Union or nowt when it came playing Rugby, albeit that was in Pudsey and were all a little bit posh coming from there (we even have our own world famous bear), oh yes we do.

Re: Eastmond to Bath RU confirmed : Mon Feb 21, 2011 2:26 pm  

tvoc wrote:

Forgive me not replying in kind but life's too short.

Funny how life's only too short for you when you have lost the argument!

tvoc wrote:

I said I (that is Rothmans) could be an incomplete record (although Gentleman Jim is on the list) that is why I asked for a time when Holiday or Holliday (you've spelt it both ways already) played International RL. It should be easier for you to prove something happened rather than I to prove it didn't (at least I've offered a source.) Just post the proof, quote a reference and we can put that one to bed.

England cap 1928 . Signed (aged 28) for Oldham 1926-29 scored 33 tries in 83 games as full back.

tvoc wrote:

Mather didn't gain a full England RU cap before joining league, no matter what you, or I or any number of good judges may say that is the fact and so cannot be included as a full England International before coming to League. How is that controversial.

Look he was International quality as his record proves. To try and say otherwise is futile. The point was the quality of converts.

tvoc wrote:

Who then are your 5 ex-England full Internationals that crossed to League during a 40 year period 1970 to 2009 inclusive (an average of 1 every 8 years)

Even then it's such a low benchmark as to be almost an irrelevant statistics as a source of fyuture RL talent.

I have already named 5 England RU Internationals that converted from 1974-1992 that is 18 years not 40. (Fielding, Bentley, Mathers, Lampkowski & Heslop) Which was the challenge. If you add 10 years of the 60's you can add Mike Coulman, Bev Risman & Ray French

You are still trying to hedge off your original statement which I contest.

The sole way you are judging talent is the number of International caps they have (now restricted to full caps although not originally stated) This is a simplistic and wrong as it rules out the likes of Shaun Edwards, Mather, Atkinson, Offiah etc and the many lesser players who have learned their rugby in the union code and enriched League at professional level.

Re: Eastmond to Bath RU confirmed : Mon Feb 21, 2011 3:35 pm  

DHM wrote:

As I rememeber Brian Jacks judo career was ended by a very small girl. She threw him and did his back or something and that was it.

Now runs an hotel in Thailand apparantly.

I bet he'd still whup her on the gym tests on Superstars though.

Re: Eastmond to Bath RU confirmed : Mon Feb 21, 2011 3:51 pm  

BrisbaneRhino wrote:

If you include BJ Mather because he was a junior RU international, then would you also include the likes of Shaun Edwards and Richard Gunn (both dual code junior internationals IIRC)?

Yes good point.

Re: Eastmond to Bath RU confirmed : Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:26 pm  

Juan Cornetto wrote:

Funny how life's only too short for you when you have lost the argument!

It's also funny as you still got your reply.

Juan Cornetto wrote:

England cap 1928 . Signed (aged 28) for Oldham 1926-29 scored 33 tries in 83 games as full back.

Right now we are getting somewhere. Is that just the one England RL Cap and would that be against (and I'm guessing here) Wales perhaps?

So earlier when you said

Juan Cornetto wrote:

No I have said nothing to support your case. I simply listed eight England Internationals who became GB RL Internationals of note.

That included Holliday who never appeared in a GB RL jersey (according to Rothmans) and Mather who never appeared in a full England RU jersey before coming to League.

Juan Cornetto wrote:

Look he was International quality as his record proves. To try and say otherwise is futile. The point was the quality of converts.

And the test wasn't to name players of International quality (a matter of opinion) it was to name Ex England Internationals (a matter of fact) to suggest otherwise is even more futile.

Juan Cornetto wrote:

I have already named 5 England RU Internationals that converted from 1974-1992 that is 18 years not 40. (Fielding, Bentley, Mathers, Lampkowski & Heslop) Which was the challenge.

A challenge on that evidence you have failed. A test that was passable given I've suggested an elusive 5th member to try and help you out earlier but one you appear reticent to use, prefering to include a clearly ineligable player in order to 'win'.

Juan Cornetto wrote:

If you add 10 years of the 60's you can add Mike Coulman, Bev Risman & Ray French

And if my auntie had balls she'd be my uncle. The question was probably originally posed in all innocense and you've had the devil's own job answering it with any credibility, manipulating the time-frame and adding your own bizarre qualification criteria.

Proves the point that ex-English RU Internationals have never been more than a hiccup in the superior code.

Juan Cornetto wrote:

You are still trying to hedge off your original statement which I contest.

The sole way you are judging talent is the number of International caps they have (now restricted to full caps although not originally stated) This is a simplistic and wrong as it rules out the likes of Shaun Edwards, Mather, Atkinson, Offiah etc and the many lesser players who have learned their rugby in the union code and enriched League at professional level.

That was never once contested by me that I recall, indeed on the previous page you must of conveniently missed when I said 'Yup I don't disagree with that.' They say some people can find an argument in an empty room. I think I've found one.

Re: Eastmond to Bath RU confirmed : Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:33 pm  

tvoc wrote:

Right now we are getting somewhere. Is that just the one England RL Cap and would that be against (and I'm guessing here) Wales perhaps?

Yes we are getting somewhere and I'm guessing you have finally cross checked your sources and belatedly realise Holliday was a full dual code International, which you had doubted. He also played 7 times for England RU and also the British and Irish Lions.

I note you have not the grace to accept that I was right on this point and you, your Rothmans handbook and its editor had as "a matter of fact" overlooked this players League International record !

Instead you sadly seek to decry Holliday for not having made more League International appearances as if this somehow excuses for your lack of knowledge of this player.

I have already stated that he converted to League late in his rugby life which limited his appearances but not his ability. He was 30 when he played for England RL. Perhaps you can pass these facts on to your editor chum at Rothmans in time for the next edition.

So your original comments were as follows.

tvoc wrote:

I'm not sure the English RFU was such a rich breeding ground for RL although not entirely because of a lack of talent.

So forget about ...Shaun Edwards, John Atkinson, Martin Offiah, Derek Hallas etc plus many good youngsters over the years

tvoc wrote:

There was not enough money in RL to tempt them.

This is not correct. As I have previously pointed out the motivation to convert was not the money for most England International players

tvoc wrote:

We tended to pick up the dissaffected, passed over talent rather than top proven International quality, I can't think of one of those.

I think most of the players I have named are top proven International quality as most became dual code internationals.

You can wriggle off on as many tangents as you like but your original statement is based on a narrow prejudiced view.

Re: Eastmond to Bath RU confirmed : Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:11 pm  

Juan Cornetto wrote:

So forget about ...Shaun Edwards, John Atkinson, Martin Offiah, Derek Hallas etc plus many good youngsters over the years

Having read a fair bit of this I think you made a mistake when you tried to use dual code internationals (Capped England RU then moving to become capped in League) to make a point about the contribution of English RU in general to RL. It's a bad example, as there are virtually none of real note. It becomes even worse if you compare it to the contribution from Wales to our code which has been immense and is now drastically missed.
It's true, that many league players have come from English RU clubs, mostly during the amateur era though. I can think of some just at Leeds, Andy Mason, Andy Smith, Jim Fallon, I think there were several others (backs) who came that way. There has been a huge contribution - none bigger than Mr Offiah - one of the all time greats. So here I would agree.
Citing schoolboys though is not a great example, I think TVOC makes a good point about the lack of league promotion in schools compared to Union makes it almost inevitable that any good RL youngster might have found himself in representative RU via his school.

I think there are two different arguments going on here, and so it could be a long night.

Re: Eastmond to Bath RU confirmed : Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:21 pm  

I preferred it when tvoc & juan cornetto were arguing about planes.