Re: Transfer Talk / Rumour Thread V3 : Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:15 am  

Unfortunately in terms of the money for the new stands the club signed confidentiality causes so that info cant be provided.

With regards to the £4m loss over the next 18 months thats surely loss of gate money, cut in Sky money, loss of corporate and loss of fixtures generally plus the refunds on season ticket money?

Seems ridiculous to me that 10k members cant watch a home game in a 20k capacity stadium but we can all stand on a crammed narrow street in Soho with thousands of other people drinking the night away. But eh thats the mad world we are living in right now.

Re: Transfer Talk / Rumour Thread V3 : Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:28 am  

Marty Grrrrrrrrrr! wrote:

Think you are forgetting the club has a massive debt already Batley. An additional £4m loss on top of that is a big concern.

I would bet money on it Marty that the quoted losses include the planned debt paybacks for the stands, etc. Typical Hetherington basically with what he releases, to ensure accepted.

You have to wonder how Saints are run so well, on a much smaller catchment area, a new stadium, smaller revenue streams, and still spend on team resources. Their coach won't have come cheap either, unlike us utilising one guy for three roles.

There is no doubt the last few months, and ongoing for a period are going to have an hit on every type of business, and of course Rugby is really in the hospitality industry which is harder hit still. However, they have also had the luxury, and not quite about telling us, that they used the furlough scheme to the full. Considering the biggest cost of the club is the people, that is quite a saving, even without the revenue in.

Re: Transfer Talk / Rumour Thread V3 : Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:10 am  

Gotcha wrote:

I would bet money on it Marty that the quoted losses include the planned debt paybacks for the stands, etc. Typical Hetherington basically with what he releases, to ensure accepted.

You have to wonder how Saints are run so well, on a much smaller catchment area, a new stadium, smaller revenue streams, and still spend on team resources. Their coach won't have come cheap either, unlike us utilising one guy for three roles.

There is no doubt the last few months, and ongoing for a period are going to have an hit on every type of business, and of course Rugby is really in the hospitality industry which is harder hit still. However, they have also had the luxury, and not quite about telling us, that they used the furlough scheme to the full. Considering the biggest cost of the club is the people, that is quite a saving, even without the revenue in.

St Helens have owners who have pumped in about £20m to build the stadium and to prop them up operationally over the past 10 years or so. They have no prospect of seeing any of that money again.
Leeds would be amazingly run by this metric if Caddick was so inclined. However over the past 20 years there hasn't been much need for Caddick funding, and as we know to rebuild the north and south stands commercial, albeit council-backed, funding was required.

This then is the key question, the club's owner has been happy to enjoy the prestige of the good times, and yes has at times used Leeds as a bank to provide cash to other parts of the Caddick empire, in particular, when it was co-owned, the union club. Hetherington and Oates also got very large sums a couple of years ago which are in theory repayable. Will they be willing or able to provide funding now that the club is in a very difficult position that might last for three or four years?

Re: Transfer Talk / Rumour Thread V3 : Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:59 am  

Some interesting points here. Worth remembering it’s a forecast £4m loss at this point, so that could easily be the worst case scenario.
Ghost - are you referring to directors loans?

Regarding confidentiality clauses on the new stands, it makes me wonder whether the funding may be from some caddick / rhinos related set up where the repayment is gradually made from profits and they are getting the interest as well. Not sure why it would be confidential if it was from a Bank.

Re: Transfer Talk / Rumour Thread V3 : Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:07 am  

Fair point Gotcha the payment probably are included in the £4m.

The stands wasnt funded by Caddick. The terms of loan and repayment was confidential.

Re: Transfer Talk / Rumour Thread V3 : Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:28 pm  

Marty Grrrrrrrrrr! wrote:

Fair point Gotcha the payment probably are included in the £4m.

The stands wasnt funded by Caddick. The terms of loan and repayment was confidential.

You may be right Marty but can you be sure about the stands if the terms are confidential?

Re: Transfer Talk / Rumour Thread V3 : Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:51 pm  

I understand that the funding for the rebuild of the North & South stands was provided by some City Venture Capital company conducted through the Leeds City Council in conjunction with Yorkshire CC.
It is possible that the 4 million £ loss includes the dept repayment- I really hope it does! The point is that what was a cash cow is now a millstone and the same will apply to Warrington and Sts who also have big debt repayments, with no income stream from Corporate customers for the foreseeable future. However even the clubs who rent small grounds are going to be affected by social distancing when crowds are allowed in providing very small crowds.
I think we all have to face up to the prospect of difficult financial problems over the next few years and cutbacks on budgets includes not spending the full cap.
I would prefer a couple of lean years on recruitment rather than going bust. Something that will happen sooner or later to SL and Championship Clubs.

Re: Transfer Talk / Rumour Thread V3 : Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:09 pm  

Mark Laurie wrote:

You may be right Marty but can you be sure about the stands if the terms are confidential?

Its the payment terms nor where the money came from thats confidential.

Re: Transfer Talk / Rumour Thread V3 : Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:08 pm  

Mark Laurie wrote:

Some interesting points here. Worth remembering it’s a forecast £4m loss at this point, so that could easily be the worst case scenario.
Ghost - are you referring to directors loans?

Yes, we have loans to directors whereas almost every other club in the league relies on loans from them. Not least of which are St Helens which is why holding them up as some paragon of financial virtue compared to Leeds of all clubs was quite laughable.

At a guess the loans to GH and RO were a way to get cash to them now ahead of a sale of the club some distance in the future, when it would be knocked off their share of the proceeds.

I don't really have a problem with that but when we are in such difficult times it will be fascinating to see if caddick puts in a loan himself or not. We know Leeds are applying for their share of the government RFL loan, and would presumably be entitled to the largest of all club shares based on how it appears to be calculated.

One thing Leeds haven't been stupid enough to do is go out announcing big new signings before getting the current squad to agree to salary cuts for this year. That's the sort of amateur hour stuff we wouldn't ever see from Hetherington. Instead we've seen details of the losses (which I'm sure are a worst case basis, as you'd expect), Leeds being very publicly the main proponents of a salary cap reduction, details of high profile players apparently being let go, and a nicely planted story in the press about how Leeds won't be able to spend as much on players and recruitment going forward. With that message digested I imagine the negotiations with our squad are going better at least than those at Warrington although Hull's generous settlement of a return to full pay in October will not have been helpful to this strategy.

Re: Transfer Talk / Rumour Thread V3 : Wed Jul 08, 2020 8:42 am  

The Ghost of '99 wrote:

St Helens have owners who have pumped in about £20m to build the stadium and to prop them up operationally over the past 10 years or so. They have no prospect of seeing any of that money again.
Leeds would be amazingly run by this metric if Caddick was so inclined. However over the past 20 years there hasn't been much need for Caddick funding, and as we know to rebuild the north and south stands commercial, albeit council-backed, funding was required.

This then is the key question, the club's owner has been happy to enjoy the prestige of the good times, and yes has at times used Leeds as a bank to provide cash to other parts of the Caddick empire, in particular, when it was co-owned, the union club. Hetherington and Oates also got very large sums a couple of years ago which are in theory repayable. Will they be willing or able to provide funding now that the club is in a very difficult position that might last for three or four years?

Very insightful post.