Re: Round 21| Wigan Home : Wed Aug 14, 2024 8:23 am  

leeds owl wrote:

I don’t think bad luck could be an excuse for Smith’s inability to create a competitive team. Bad luck could be associated with injuries to players, one off game changing decisions or persecution from the authorities resulting in losing players to bans. I think Rohan Smith was guilty of introducing bad practices into training and on the playing field. I actually think if the ruck had been speeded up by the authorities we would have been in massive trouble and even less competitive as a team. We were passive, slow of movement and slow of thought with Rohan in charge. The slow ruck speed excuse was a red herring, just like the “we’ll be better when the pitches firm up” . The wheels may come off for Brad Arthur over the next few weeks, but Rohan Smith had his chance and we were only going one way with this group of players coached by him. I wish him well, but apart from a damn good job of propelling us to the final in 2022 his tenure has been painful and set the club back in ways we may not yet appreciate.

I more mean it was bad luck his appointment didn't work out rather than his coaching performance. Holbrook and Woolf both had similar backgrounds and pedigrees to RS before they came over, yet their teams flourished. Getting an overseas coach is always a risk, and in this case, it didn't pay off. It doesn't mean he is stupid and incompetent as others suggest though. Things just get way too personal on this site. I actually think RS would be a great coach at somewhere like a London or Toulouse, but certainly not a big SL team like Leeds.

Re: Round 21| Wigan Home : Wed Aug 14, 2024 8:40 am  

exiledrhino wrote:

I more mean it was bad luck his appointment didn't work out rather than his coaching performance. Holbrook and Woolf both had similar backgrounds and pedigrees to RS before they came over, yet their teams flourished. Getting an overseas coach is always a risk, and in this case, it didn't pay off. It doesn't mean he is stupid and incompetent as others suggest though. Things just get way too personal on this site. I actually think RS would be a great coach at somewhere like a London or Toulouse, but certainly not a big SL team like Leeds.

I was happy in Smith’s appointment as coach. Most clubs go down the route of appointing well known coaches that have been around the block and not always successfully, so it was a risk worth taking for me. I suppose there was an element of bad luck that the risk/decision turned out to be so catastrophic, but I don’t see Rohan personally had any bad luck. I’m sorry you feel it gets too personal on this site, you’re a regular contributor to a good forum and I’d like to think we can all agree to disagree. The more people on here the better for me, and if I ever disagree with you it’s nothing personal it’s just the nature of the forum mate.

Re: Round 21| Wigan Home : Wed Aug 14, 2024 9:02 am  

leeds owl wrote:

I was happy in Smith’s appointment as coach. Most clubs go down the route of appointing well known coaches that have been around the block and not always successfully, so it was a risk worth taking for me. I suppose there was an element of bad luck that the risk/decision turned out to be so catastrophic, but I don’t see Rohan personally had any bad luck. I’m sorry you feel it gets too personal on this site, you’re a regular contributor to a good forum and I’d like to think we can all agree to disagree. The more people on here the better for me, and if I ever disagree with you it’s nothing personal it’s just the nature of the forum mate.

Thanks for the reply, but I think you've missed my point. I'm not saying people shouldn't disagree, it's what makes the forum interesting. I just think it's over the top people (not necessarily aimed at you), saying that RS is incompetent, stupid and clueless. He's worked in the game for 20 years in some very good set-ups and is well thought of, so it can't be the case.

And I think you've made my point for me. After Holbrook and Woolf, we had reason to be optimistic about the appointment, the bad luck I'm referring to is that this one hasn't worked out. There wasn't much personal bad luck for him, I think RS deserved to be sacked given consistently poor tactical and recruitment decisions. Doesn't mean he's an idiot / stupid though.

Re: Round 21| Wigan Home : Wed Aug 14, 2024 10:40 am  

exiledrhino wrote:

Thanks for the reply, but I think you've missed my point. I'm not saying people shouldn't disagree, it's what makes the forum interesting. I just think it's over the top people (not necessarily aimed at you), saying that RS is incompetent, stupid and clueless. He's worked in the game for 20 years in some very good set-ups and is well thought of, so it can't be the case.

And I think you've made my point for me. After Holbrook and Woolf, we had reason to be optimistic about the appointment, the bad luck I'm referring to is that this one hasn't worked out. There wasn't much personal bad luck for him, I think RS deserved to be sacked given consistently poor tactical and recruitment decisions. Doesn't mean he's an idiot / stupid though.

I agree with this. It's not like Smith was plucked from utter obscurity. To an extent he rode his luck getting us to the GF, but there was plenty more that could have gone for us that didn't (e.g. not losing Sezer to concussion protocols before the GF, losing Martin to the disciplinary every other week, etc).

Smith had success elsewhere, and for whatever reason, his approach didn't fit Leeds or SL. There's only so much a coach can control. Ultimately IMO Smith's failing was not adapting quickly enough after the 2022 GF run approach stopped bearing fruit. There were mitigating factors in 2023, but doubling down in 2024 was not the right way to go. Arthur is a breath of fresh air, but let's not forget even he had gone stale at Parramatta and didn't have a win-loss record much better than Smith at Leeds.

2023 was a real disappointment. Smith didn't have much cap space to use, but he managed to clear a lot of dead wood - I see no-one is clamouring for Briscoe, Sutcliffe and Dwyer to come back. It's a shame we didn't retain Hardaker for another season, but on the face of it McDonnell, Macdonald, and maybe Lisone were decent signings. Olpherts, Roberts and Hooley were obviously gambles given what little room was left on the cap.

Of the current squad assembled by Smith, I see a lot of people referring to it not being good enough, but which players exactly are letting us down?

IMO, Croft, Miller, McDonnell, and Ackers have been for the most part good signings. Miller has had a few howlers but his game has stabilised under Arthur.

Frawley and Momirovski haven't endeared themselves to everyone, but Frawley's been great under Arthur, and Momirovski looks like he will be a good winger's centre given time and a full pre-season.

Lisone and Bentley (Smith re-signing) have been disappointing for their persistent indiscipline/errors, but they are about the only properly aggressive forwards we have. Upgrades would be good, especially on Lisone.

Fusitu'a and Gannon are potentially first choice players, but perennial injuries have kept them out. The decision to re-sign Fusitu'a looked terrible after the surgery lay-off at the start of the season, and he still can't string many 80 minute performances together.

On the flip-side, Jarrod O'Connor has been a revelation under Smith, even if he's not an out and out hooker. Handley and Martin have been consistently good under Smith too.

Is it the other Leeds boys letting us down? Oledski makes a lot of metres every week, and Cam Smith is (?still) the top tackler in SL. But Oledski is not a pack leader, and Smith has question marks over his role as a ball-playing 13. And then there's the 'superstar' Harry Newman, allegedly on marquee money, who has produced little since signing his last contract - I rarely get the sense that Harry is willing to put his body (and ego) on the line for the team. Smith defended Newman when his discipline was questioned by Sky pundits but Newman still seems more likely to have an on-field argument with a team mate than anyone. Holroyd is another one - feted as the next big thing in the pack but just not at the races when he last played. Is this about attitude, and/or bad luck with injuries?

Maybe a pre-season with Arthur, plus a couple of shrewd additions to the pack, and this team won't be too far off? Or am I seeing this all wrong, and we need another clear-out?

Re: Round 21| Wigan Home : Wed Aug 14, 2024 11:17 am  

Good post Exeter.

Re: Round 21| Wigan Home : Wed Aug 14, 2024 11:21 am  

Exeter Rhino wrote:

I agree with this. It's not like Smith was plucked from utter obscurity. To an extent he rode his luck getting us to the GF, but there was plenty more that could have gone for us that didn't (e.g. not losing Sezer to concussion protocols before the GF, losing Martin to the disciplinary every other week, etc).

Smith had success elsewhere, and for whatever reason, his approach didn't fit Leeds or SL. There's only so much a coach can control. Ultimately IMO Smith's failing was not adapting quickly enough after the 2022 GF run approach stopped bearing fruit. There were mitigating factors in 2023, but doubling down in 2024 was not the right way to go. Arthur is a breath of fresh air, but let's not forget even he had gone stale at Parramatta and didn't have a win-loss record much better than Smith at Leeds.

2023 was a real disappointment. Smith didn't have much cap space to use, but he managed to clear a lot of dead wood - I see no-one is clamouring for Briscoe, Sutcliffe and Dwyer to come back. It's a shame we didn't retain Hardaker for another season, but on the face of it McDonnell, Macdonald, and maybe Lisone were decent signings. Olpherts, Roberts and Hooley were obviously gambles given what little room was left on the cap.

Of the current squad assembled by Smith, I see a lot of people referring to it not being good enough, but which players exactly are letting us down?

IMO, Croft, Miller, McDonnell, and Ackers have been for the most part good signings. Miller has had a few howlers but his game has stabilised under Arthur.

Frawley and Momirovski haven't endeared themselves to everyone, but Frawley's been great under Arthur, and Momirovski looks like he will be a good winger's centre given time and a full pre-season.

Lisone and Bentley (Smith re-signing) have been disappointing for their persistent indiscipline/errors, but they are about the only properly aggressive forwards we have. Upgrades would be good, especially on Lisone.

Fusitu'a and Gannon are potentially first choice players, but perennial injuries have kept them out. The decision to re-sign Fusitu'a looked terrible after the surgery lay-off at the start of the season, and he still can't string many 80 minute performances together.

On the flip-side, Jarrod O'Connor has been a revelation under Smith, even if he's not an out and out hooker. Handley and Martin have been consistently good under Smith too.

Is it the other Leeds boys letting us down? Oledski makes a lot of metres every week, and Cam Smith is (?still) the top tackler in SL. But Oledski is not a pack leader, and Smith has question marks over his role as a ball-playing 13. And then there's the 'superstar' Harry Newman, allegedly on marquee money, who has produced little since signing his last contract - I rarely get the sense that Harry is willing to put his body (and ego) on the line for the team. Smith defended Newman when his discipline was questioned by Sky pundits but Newman still seems more likely to have an on-field argument with a team mate than anyone. Holroyd is another one - feted as the next big thing in the pack but just not at the races when he last played. Is this about attitude, and/or bad luck with injuries?

Maybe a pre-season with Arthur, plus a couple of shrewd additions to the pack, and this team won't be too far off? Or am I seeing this all wrong, and we need another clear-out?

I think that's pretty much spot on. IMO we don't need another clear out, we have some very talented players, we just need some additions and they will be key and they all need to be in the pack.

I think its just a natural fans reaction when not playing well that they all the players need to be cleared out, when in reality its just good players underperforming for a multitude of reasons.

Keep Arthur add some grit and power in the forwards and we will go well next year, we have some great youngsters coming through (who apparently R Smith has helped a lot) there's absolutely no need for the overused 'rebuild'.

Re: Round 21| Wigan Home : Wed Aug 14, 2024 11:53 am  

A quality coach with a sprinkling of talent on the field can make a huge difference. The coach needs the players buy in and Arthur would weed out any chancers pretty quickly given a good offseason and some time.

Re: Round 21| Wigan Home : Wed Aug 14, 2024 1:12 pm  

We don't have that many players that are not SL standard, but we do have a terrible lack of balance within the squad and in specific areas of it. These two things can both be true at the same time. It's well documented that our pack is underpowered, particularly the Front Row, but also in the variety of options we have in the back row positions. We have too many players that are "the same" and not enough size or variety of skill set.

If we look at the backs, there have been a number of gambles taken, Miller, Fusitua, Momirovski all signed at great expense, and all have so far flatterer to deceive. Miller looks the most likely to come good, but at 30 this week, time is not exactly on his side given his lack of experience. Fusitua will leave at the end of the season and the jury is still out on Momirovski.

We need to change the balance of the squad, with more grunt and size in the forwards, and more speed in the backs. The halves will feed off the platform that the forwards can maintain, so they will both look better with a better pack and more structure in the approach. As an example, because of playing structure, Luke Gale looked like a Golden Boot candidate in 2017 at Cas, and was barely adequate at Leeds only 3 years later.

We don't need to rip up the squad and start again, but we shouldn't be extending anyone coming out of contract, and also looking to move a few others on who are just not what we need.

Re: Round 21| Wigan Home : Wed Aug 14, 2024 1:16 pm  

I'm not an expert by any means but from what i know just because newman is marquee doesn't make him highly paid. he is club trained so it's just manipulating the salary cap. if I'm mistaken someone will put me right

Re: Round 21| Wigan Home : Wed Aug 14, 2024 1:32 pm  

Exeter Rhino wrote:

Frawley and Momirovski haven't endeared themselves to everyone, but Frawley's been great under Arthur, and Momirovski looks like he will be a good winger's centre given time and a full pre-season.

I think using words like great to describe Frawley’s performances under Arthur is a bit over the top. We’ve won 2 out of five and Frawley has improved for sure….but great ? As for Momorovski, I don’t think a full pre season will make him any faster or suddenly see him busting through defenders, and if he’s making poor attempts at tackles when he’s 28 I don’t see him suddenly improving at 29. He’s been the most disappointing signing for me, on the basis I wasn’t expecting anything from Frawley anyway. Like everyone else I’m hoping they continue to improve under Arthur , but I think we will need more stardust alongside them because for me they’re both pretty average at best. Frawley’s kicking game has improved but don’t expect to see a 40/20 from him before he retires, and he’s still kicking the ball straight down defenders throats most times. Roll on The Wire and let’s hope these two put back to back decent performances together.