Re: Cross & Burgess... Get us out of here : Fri Jun 17, 2011 9:47 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

As an employer you have a duty of care to your employees - these are young immature people in a unique working environment. If you look at the performances of some our props that have been selected before Burgess it could be seen as constructive dismissal. Given the relative quality of their performances Burgess has every right to a reasoned explanation as to why the likes of Kirke/Bailey/Kylie are getting selected before him - and he has every justification to be agreived.

On Cross - his treatment is simply embarassing for a top club. You cannot sign someone on a 3 year contract, fly them and their family half way round the world and then after 3 months discard them. He hasn't done a Wendall or a Mullins or behaved in any way that doesn't bring credit to the club. This is bad for business - what message does this send out to other NRL players, why would they come here?

I expect the likes of Kylie and Peacock to get a contract extension - this is simply madness.

This is yet another example of CEO who looks increasingly out of his depth - the shambles that is the RU, the scaling back of the southstand, falling crowds and a team in free fall!! It is time for change at the top.

I've got to disagree really, because while I accept the club has a duty of care to it's employees, it's duty of care only extends as far as employment law, H&S etc and it's contractual obligations to the employee. If we expect clubs to go further than that then the club should, rightly, expect something similar in return from the player. Also these aren't young 17 year olds who are just starting out, Burgess is 24 & Cross is 32. Both should be experienced in how clubs work by now and don't need protecting in some way from any naive decisions that might be made by younger lads.
Burgess has played in 11 out of 17 SL games this season and IIRC he missed a few of those through injury as well so he's hardly been totally overlooked all season (although I would agree the constant selection of Kirke is slightly confusing). If, as it appears, Burgess has thrown his toys out of the pram I would expect there to be some kind of disciplinary measure taken against him. Maybe in this case it's been non-selection for first team games. I don't expect him to be happy about not playing every week, that's good and shows some enthusiasm, but I do expect him to be professional about it, work his backside off in training and force his way back into the team.
It also comes nowhere close to constructive dismissal.

As for Cross, well until the details come out I have a bit more sympathy with the player on this one since as you say he's brought his family across the world, but there are rumours of disciplinary problems so I'll keep an open mind on this one until the truth comes out.

As for GH, I think the comments are a bit harsh to be honest. Considering no club in the modern era has had a period of dominance such as the one Leeds enjoyed don't you think it only natural for their to be a decline of some sort at some sort? I think it's just a cycle in sport, especially a salary capped one, and whilst I'm sure there are things GH has got wrong I think you're underestimatingthe difficulties of keeping a side consistently winning major trophies. Also if Warrington, Hudds & Wigan were as gash now as they were 5 years ago we'd be about 2nd or 3rd. Other teams have improved whilst we are going through a natural decline. Admittedly with a few poor decisions tacked on.

Re: Cross & Burgess... Get us out of here : Fri Jun 17, 2011 10:11 am  

Good stuff "Him" and i agree.
Gotcha ,GH is more than capable of running this club and his record stands up to any other in SL.
As for his "running" of the union side that's nothing to do with the Rhinos and to be fair that squad with that coach should not of finished bottom given the state of Newcastle and Sale so the team and coaches take 90% of that blame.
Of course things can go wrong and i don't think the club are totally perfect in everything they've done but the free-fall ,GH out of his depth etc etc are way OTT imo.
just to add i'll decide if my own opinion on GH is right or wrong thanks ,feel free to disagree but don't "Tell2 me what i should think.

Re: Cross & Burgess... Get us out of here : Fri Jun 17, 2011 10:15 am  

I'm a little puzzled by this. We seem to be collecting props then donating them to other clubs without using them. So what if Burgess threw his teddies out after not being selected? Jason Robinson smashed the changeing rooms up with a sledge hammer at Wigan after Inga was selected ahead of him for the CC final.
I think Burgess should have been playing, Cross, well, not a great signing was he to begin with, but you have to say 10 games in a team that collectively has not been outstanding and been haevily disrupted by injury for the early season is hardly a fair run.

Not great management here. A set of incidents to forget.

Re: Cross & Burgess... Get us out of here : Fri Jun 17, 2011 10:22 am  

rhinoms wrote:

Gotcha ,GH is more than capable of running this club and his record stands up to any other in SL.

Gh has run this club superbly, not just capable. The key is has. You can not use an argument based on history when we are talking about today.

Should we ignore a criminals offence if he's never committed a crime before? No we shouldn't. Everything should be judged on the here and now.

It may well be that GH will deliver again. But his last two years performance in his role at the club, for both League and Union should be seriously questioned. As with anyone in that role in all companies with a similar performance.

rhinoms wrote:

As for his "running" of the union side that's nothing to do with the Rhinos and to be fair that squad with that coach should not of finished bottom given the state of Newcastle and Sale so the team and coaches take 90% of that blame.

I am not going to proffess about knowing RU, because I think it is 5h1te. I do however know a few who are corporate members of Carnegie, and I know there is a lot of discontent at the way the club has been run over the last 18 months. In particular most of the fans knew they would be relegated at the start of the season due to the poor squad strength, which is completely the oppossit to what you believe.

rhinoms wrote:

Of course things can go wrong and i don't think the club are totally perfect in everything they've done but the free-fall ,GH out of his depth etc etc are way OTT imo.

So what is your definition of free fall? decline? You don't think totally dominant to 5th best (and that arguable) is a big drop in such a short time?

rhinoms wrote:

just to add i'll decide if my own opinion on GH is right or wrong thanks ,feel free to disagree but don't "Tell2 me what i should think.

And that's the way it should be. Has anyone actually told you what you should think on here?

Re: Cross & Burgess... Get us out of here : Fri Jun 17, 2011 10:24 am  

Remarkable_Rhinos wrote:

Life is too short mate, either get on board and enjoy the ride, or don't buy a ticket.

So that's how it works.

If only you'd been around 40+ years ago with that advice .... funny thing is I've never been able to set aside my feelings for the club I support.

Re: Cross & Burgess... Get us out of here : Fri Jun 17, 2011 10:34 am  

Gotcha ,My Definition of free-fall and serious decline is happening live as we speak up the road at the Grattan "Pot-Hole".
Like i posted above i accept some mistakes have been made ,last year we made the CC final and were in the qualifying semi for the GF after one of the worst seasons in our history for injuries to key players so i don't class that as "failure".
This year is where i agree re-mistakes especially recruitment/retention but that alone points to transitional/dip to me not freefall and it's interesting to see how GH and the club react but it's not beyond repair either.
Don't get me wrong i am NOT saying everything is fine and dandy and GH is beyond question/critic i just don't think it's either terminal or as bad as you and Sal make out.
As for the union side i attended a couple of games last year and many i spoke to thought that squad could/should of stayed up so we have to agree to disagree.

Re: Cross & Burgess... Get us out of here : Fri Jun 17, 2011 10:36 am  

See this? This I reckon is the one source of opinion about GH's performance that matters. This... is irrelevant tripe I'm afraid Gotcha wrote: Gh has run this club superbly, not just capable. The key is has. You can not use an argument based on history when we are talking about today. It may well be that GH will deliver again. But his last two years performance in his role at the club, for both League and Union should be seriously questioned. As with anyone in that role in all companies with a similar performance. Gotcha wrote: And that's the way it should be. Has anyone actually told you what you should think on here? It appears you're sure trying.

See this? This I reckon is the one source of opinion about GH's performance that matters. This... is irrelevant tripe I'm afraid Gotcha wrote: Gh has run this club superbly, not just capable. The key is has. You can not use an argument based on history when we are talking about today. It may well be that GH will deliver again. But his last two years performance in his role at the club, for both League and Union should be seriously questioned. As with anyone in that role in all companies with a similar performance. Gotcha wrote: And that's the way it should be. Has anyone actually told you what you should think on here? It appears you're sure trying.

Re: Cross & Burgess... Get us out of here : Fri Jun 17, 2011 10:44 am  

rhinoms wrote:

Gotcha ,My Definition of free-fall and serious decline is happening live as we speak up the road at the Grattan "Pot-Hole"

Hang on a minute, let's just make sure you are sure what you are saying here, because you make a valid point.

2005 Bradford were Super League Champions
2006 Bradford finished 4th and reached the final elminator
2007 Bradford finished 3rd and CC semi final
2008 Bradford finished 5th
2009 Bradford finished 9th
2010 Bradford finished 10th

In contrast

2009 Leeds were Super League Champions
2010 Leeds finished 5th and reached the final eliminator
2011 ?? No chance of Leeds finishing higher than 5th.

Bradford went from Champions to 5th in 3 seasons, we look like doing it in 2.

I would say your point should be taken on board considerably and learnt from very quickly.

Re: Cross & Burgess... Get us out of here : Fri Jun 17, 2011 10:51 am  

loinertillidie wrote: See this? This I reckon is the one source of opinion about GH's performance that matters. Not that straightforward though is it? Afterall Hetherington is much more than a mere paid employee from what I can gather. Probably more chance of Caddick walking away. _________ Gotcha wrote: 2010 Leeds finished 5th and reached the final eliminator Are you sure? And why have Bradford got a Challenge Cup Semi credit and Leeds received nothing for going one stage further?

loinertillidie wrote: See this? This I reckon is the one source of opinion about GH's performance that matters. Not that straightforward though is it? Afterall Hetherington is much more than a mere paid employee from what I can gather. Probably more chance of Caddick walking away. _________ Gotcha wrote: 2010 Leeds finished 5th and reached the final eliminator Are you sure? And why have Bradford got a Challenge Cup Semi credit and Leeds received nothing for going one stage further?

Re: Cross & Burgess... Get us out of here : Fri Jun 17, 2011 11:09 am  

Does Leeds Rugby turn a profit? Do many other clubs? Is success index linked to funds in the club? Is success and profit linked to numbers on turnstiles on matchday or is it also to do with the "Executive" side of the business?

Since when did going through a transition whilst redeveloping the ground whilst still turning a profit denote the failings of a COO?