FORUMS FORUMS






RLFANS.COM
Celebrating
25 years service to
the Rugby League
Community!

   WWW.RLFANS.COM • View topic - For the live of God,Allah or whoever-McDermott GO!!!
tvoc 
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
International Board Member22289
JoinedServiceReputation
Mar 05 200322 yearsN/A
OnlineLast PostLast Page
11th Sep 24 00:2922nd Aug 18 08:49LINK
Milestone Posts
20000
25000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530

Juan Cornetto wrote:
By the same token some of our losses this year could be attributed to our high error count which would mean the winners were "considerably helped by mistake ridden opposition efforts" too!!


Perhaps but not neccessarily so. Which specific games do you have in mind?

Juan Cornetto wrote:
We had the 3rd highest error count in SL. However your stats are pointless unless they also record that these errors actually cost us those games otherwise it is just conjecture. Warrington finished one point behind the leaders and lost 5 fewer games than we did yet made 15% more errors over the season.


Do I say errors and errors alone cost any team any game? I think they are a key element but there are other elements also. There is a tendancy for some to focus on penalty counts almost to the exclusion of everything else but sometimes penalties conceded at an appropriate time and situation prevent a worse case occurring.

Do you think taking an overall season tally as you have done there adds anything to a discussion regarding whether on any given day one team making a disproportionately high amount of errors in relation to their opponents has a key part to play in the eventual outcome?

The relevance to the statistic is on the day not when taken as an average over 27 rounds. If both teams make a similar amount of errors the impact on the result will be marginal. If, as occurred on Friday, one team improves on their usual average while the other exceeds theirs and it result in a large disparity then I maintain that the large disparity will have an impact on the outcome.

The average over the season will have no bearing unless the game falls in-line with those averages and this one clearly didn't as Leeds made 46% fewer errors than their average would suggest they would over 27 rounds just as Les Catalans made 23% more than theirs.

It's the disparity within the eighty minutes that can be argued to have had an effect on the outcome not neccessarily the relative averages of the two competing teams over the season.
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
Player Coach4934
JoinedServiceReputation
Aug 09 200816 yearsN/A
OnlineLast PostLast Page
5th Oct 22 18:0330th Dec 20 01:26LINK
Milestone Posts
2500
5000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Living the Dream
Signature
Don't worry about avoiding temptation.
As you grow older, it will avoid you!
- Winston Churchill

tvoc wrote:
Perhaps but not neccessarily so. Which specific games do you have in mind?

Do I say errors and errors alone cost any team any game? I think they are a key element but there are other elements also. There is a tendancy for some to focus on penalty counts almost to the exclusion of everything else but sometimes penalties conceded at an appropriate time and situation prevent a worse case occurring.

Do you think taking an overall season tally as you have done there adds anything to a discussion regarding whether on any given day one team making a disproportionately high amount of errors in relation to their opponents has a key part to play in the eventual outcome?

The relevance to the statistic is on the day not when taken as an average over 27 rounds. If both teams make a similar amount of errors the impact on the result will be marginal. If, as occurred on Friday, one team improves on their usual average while the other exceeds theirs and it result in a large disparity then I maintain that the large disparity will have an impact on the outcome.

The average over the season will have no bearing unless the game falls in-line with those averages and this one clearly didn't as Leeds made 46% fewer errors than their average would suggest they would over 27 rounds just as Les Catalans made 23% more than theirs.

It's the disparity within the eighty minutes that can be argued to have had an effect on the outcome not neccessarily the relative averages of the two competing teams over the season.


Of course errors have an effect. You inferred that in some key victories this year opposition errors was a major factor in our wins. Maybe so and maybe not. But wasn't it ever thus for most games in sport? But unless you are precise in how each error led to victory or defeat it is pure conjecture that the error counts were vital.

In any game an error (or penalty) or series of errors or penalties can have a major effect on momentum, and the result, depending on where on the field it occurs and if on 1st or last tackle for instance. In some games the numbers even up over the course of the game, but it is the timing of the errors and the context within a game that can determine the outcome and not the pure numbers of errors/penalties.

You appeared to be concentrating on the number of errors rather than their individual importance.
tvoc 
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
International Board Member22289
JoinedServiceReputation
Mar 05 200322 yearsN/A
OnlineLast PostLast Page
11th Sep 24 00:2922nd Aug 18 08:49LINK
Milestone Posts
20000
25000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530

Juan Cornetto wrote:
You appeared to be concentrating on the number of errors rather than their individual importance.


Only as a general indicator but for me often a telling one. Not completing your sets is rarely if ever a positive factor - unless you have evidence to the contrary that you'd like to share?
Richie 
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
International Chairman17134No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Dec 22 200123 yearsN/A
OnlineLast PostLast Page
11th Sep 20 21:449th Aug 20 18:21LINK
Milestone Posts
15000
20000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Johannesberg, South Africa
Signature
Northampton RL....details here: //www.northamptonrl.co.uk

tvoc wrote:
Only as a general indicator but for me often a telling one. Not completing your sets is rarely if ever a positive factor - unless you have evidence to the contrary that you'd like to share?


I remember a coaching clinic, maybe three years ago, it was pointed out that the worst completion stats or error count (one of the two) belonged to Leeds and Warrington, that year. The reason? Both teams would chance their arm to score points, and were confident enough in their defence to do that.

I think if you're a poorer team, then you have to play the game of field position, which comes from completing sets and turning over on your terms - a clearing kick, or attacking kick for a score or repeat set.
tvoc 
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
International Board Member22289
JoinedServiceReputation
Mar 05 200322 yearsN/A
OnlineLast PostLast Page
11th Sep 24 00:2922nd Aug 18 08:49LINK
Milestone Posts
20000
25000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530

The first paragraph sounds like an approach a talented team could adopt in the Regular Rounds, the second paragraph is Play-Off football.

I think I said earlier on this thread that both Warrington and Leeds had played good play-off football last weekend and should go forward with some confidence.
That wasn't said off the back of error strewn casual performances like you might see during the Regular Rounds but off the back of set-completion, kick-chase and challenging the opposition to go the length if they wanted to score.

St Helens under Rush appear to have been concentrating on getting their Play-Off style together. Wigan I'm not convinced about. Should be two fascinating games this week - looking forward to it.
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
Club Coach15864No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Oct 09 200420 years219th
OnlineLast PostLast Page
29th Jul 24 20:1818th Oct 23 06:01LINK
Milestone Posts
15000
20000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Nottingham. 800 years ago outlaws stole from the rich. Little has changed here

tvoc wrote:
The first paragraph sounds like an approach a talented team could adopt in the Regular Rounds, the second paragraph is Play-Off football.

I think I said earlier on this thread that both Warrington and Leeds had played good play-off football last weekend and should go forward with some confidence.
That wasn't said off the back of error strewn casual performances like you might see during the Regular Rounds but off the back of set-completion, kick-chase and challenging the opposition to go the length if they wanted to score.

St Helens under Rush appear to have been concentrating on getting their Play-Off style together. Wigan I'm not convinced about. Should be two fascinating games this week - looking forward to it.

Interesting point of view about different tactic adopted in main season, and play-offs. Do you think that teams play a game with high error rates in order to over expose their defence during the season, so its battle hardened by play off time?

I seem to remember in one of the McClennan seasons that we had the highest number of penalties conceded during the season, but that the problem magically went away at play off time.
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
Player Coach11658
JoinedServiceReputation
Sep 09 200717 yearsN/A
OnlineLast PostLast Page
1st Sep 18 07:1331st Aug 18 17:46LINK
Milestone Posts
10000
15000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Can you see me?
Signature
Fat people are harder to kidnap.

The Eagle wrote:
Interesting point of view about different tactic adopted in main season, and play-offs. Do you think that teams play a game with high error rates in order to over expose their defence during the season, so its battle hardened by play off time?

I seem to remember in one of the McClennan seasons that we had the highest number of penalties conceded during the season, but that the problem magically went away at play off time.


I think this is exactly what BMcD has done through the season. Sacrificed one or two games to expose our frailties so they can be identified and rectified for the play-offs.

How else can you explain the performance we put in against Huddersfield a few weeks back?
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
Player Coach4938
JoinedServiceReputation
Oct 07 200519 yearsN/A
OnlineLast PostLast Page
27th Jul 18 14:4224th Mar 17 13:08LINK
Milestone Posts
2500
5000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530

Fat Boy wrote:
I think this is exactly what BMcD has done through the season. Sacrificed one or two games to expose our frailties so they can be identified and rectified for the play-offs.

How else can you explain the performance we put in against Huddersfield a few weeks back?

Motivation must be difficult to muster once you've already fulfilled your regular season ambition of finishing 5th.
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
Club Coach12106No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Oct 14 200420 yearsN/A
OnlineLast PostLast Page
29th Oct 15 17:1729th Oct 15 17:05LINK
Milestone Posts
10000
15000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
The Middle of the Land
Signature
OBN Wannabe

The Eagle wrote:
Do you think that teams play a game with high error rates in order to over expose their defence during the season, so its battle hardened by play off time?



No. I don't.
RankPostsTeam
International Star414No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Jan 28 201114 yearsN/A
OnlineLast PostLast Page
13th Sep 15 20:4013th Sep 15 17:16LINK
Milestone Posts
250
500
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Sharing a bed with Lucy Pinder

So McDermott has guided the Rhions to yet another Grand Final.

I'm sure Brian is sat somwhere with a cold beer in one hand and a cigar in the another with a smug grin on his face simply laughing at the expense of his 'know all' critics.

Well done Leeds, btw.
PreviousNext

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ArthurClues, Clearwing, FGB, Google Adsense [Bot], leedsbarmyarmy, Loiner at large, tad rhino and 163 guests

REPLY

Subject: 
Message:
   
Please note using apple style emoji's can result in posting failures.
Use the FULL EDITOR to better format content or upload images, be notified of replies etc...

Return to Leeds Rhinos


RLFANS Recent Posts
FORUM
LAST
POST
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
4m
ALL NEW 49ERS ERA LEEDS UTD THREAD
tad rhino
2625
6m
Film game
karetaker
5823
53m
Co-Captains for 2025
MjM
7
Recent
How many games will we win
18th Man
52
Recent
2025 Season tickets
FIL
216
Recent
2025 Shirt
Azul
24
Recent
Ground Improvements
Start@1873
226
Recent
Quiz night
H.G.S.A
1
Recent
2025 Recruitment
dddooommm
225
Recent
Salary Cap Changes Blocked - 11 votes to 1
Father Ted
18
FORUM
LAST
VIEW
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
57s
Pre Season - 2025
Hasbag
202
1m
Ground Improvements
Start@1873
226
1m
Rumours and signings v9
apollosghost
28911
1m
Salford
ratticusfinc
63
1m
Fixtures
BigTime
16
2m
Rumours thread
Khlav Kalash
2516
3m
BORED The Band Name Game
Boss Hog
63288
3m
Leigh Leopards - 2025 Fixtures
LeythIg
7
3m
Game - Song Titles
Boss Hog
40822
6m
Former players
Wanderer
1332
FORUM
NEW
TOPICS
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
TODAY
Quiz night
H.G.S.A
1
TODAY
Co-Captains for 2025
MjM
7
TODAY
Cornwall has a new owner
Huddersfield
1
TODAY
Callum Shaw
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Squad Numbers
phe13
4
TODAY
Rhinos squad numbers
Rixy
1
TODAY
Squad numbers
Warrior Wing
8
TODAY
Mat Crowther pre season update
Dunkirk Spir
1
TODAY
Mike Cooper podcast
rubber ducki
6
TODAY
Shirt reveal coming soon
Shifty Cat
47
TODAY
Opening Championship and League One Fixtures for 2025 Released
RLFANS News
1
NEWS ITEMS
VIEWS
RLFANS Match Centre
Matches on TV
Thu 13th Feb
SL
20:00
Wigan-Leigh
Fri 14th Feb
SL
20:00
Hull KR-Castleford
SL
20:00
Catalans-Hull FC
Sat 15th Feb
SL
15:00
Leeds - Wakefield
SL
17:30
St.Helens-Salford
Sun 16th Feb
SL
15:00
Huddersfield-Warrington
Thu 20th Feb
SL
20:00
Wakefield - Hull KR
Fri 21st Feb
SL
20:00
Warrington-Catalans
SL
20:00
Hull FC-Wigan
Sat 22nd Feb
SL
15:00
Salford-Leeds
SL
20:00
Castleford-St.Helens
Sun 23rd Feb
SL
14:30
Leigh-Huddersfield
Thu 6th Mar
SL
20:00
Hull FC-Leigh
Fri 7th Mar
SL
20:00
Castleford-Salford
SL
20:00
St.Helens-Hull KR
Sat 8th Mar
SL
17:30
Catalans-Leeds
Sun 9th Mar
SL
17:30
Warrington - Wakefield
SL
17:30
Wigan-Huddersfield
Thu 20th Mar
SL
20:00
Salford-Huddersfield
Fri 21st Mar
SL
20:00
St.Helens-Warrington
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Mens Betfred Super League XXVIII ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wigan 29 768 338 430 48
Hull KR 29 731 344 387 44
Warrington 29 769 351 418 42
Leigh 29 580 442 138 33
Salford 28 556 561 -5 32
St.Helens 28 618 411 207 30
 
Catalans 27 475 427 48 30
Leeds 27 530 488 42 28
Huddersfield 27 468 658 -190 20
Castleford 27 425 735 -310 15
Hull FC 27 328 894 -566 6
LondonB 27 317 916 -599 6
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Betfred Championship 2024 ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wakefield 27 1032 275 757 52
Toulouse 26 765 388 377 37
Bradford 28 723 420 303 36
York 29 695 501 194 32
Widnes 27 561 502 59 29
Featherstone 27 634 525 109 28
 
Sheffield 26 626 526 100 28
Doncaster 26 498 619 -121 25
Halifax 26 509 650 -141 22
Batley 26 422 591 -169 22
Swinton 28 484 676 -192 20
Barrow 25 442 720 -278 19
Whitehaven 25 437 826 -389 18
Dewsbury 27 348 879 -531 4
Hunslet 1 6 10 -4 0
RLFANS Recent Posts
FORUM
LAST
POST
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
4m
ALL NEW 49ERS ERA LEEDS UTD THREAD
tad rhino
2625
6m
Film game
karetaker
5823
53m
Co-Captains for 2025
MjM
7
Recent
How many games will we win
18th Man
52
Recent
2025 Season tickets
FIL
216
Recent
2025 Shirt
Azul
24
Recent
Ground Improvements
Start@1873
226
Recent
Quiz night
H.G.S.A
1
Recent
2025 Recruitment
dddooommm
225
Recent
Salary Cap Changes Blocked - 11 votes to 1
Father Ted
18
FORUM
LAST
VIEW
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
57s
Pre Season - 2025
Hasbag
202
1m
Ground Improvements
Start@1873
226
1m
Rumours and signings v9
apollosghost
28911
1m
Salford
ratticusfinc
63
1m
Fixtures
BigTime
16
2m
Rumours thread
Khlav Kalash
2516
3m
BORED The Band Name Game
Boss Hog
63288
3m
Leigh Leopards - 2025 Fixtures
LeythIg
7
3m
Game - Song Titles
Boss Hog
40822
6m
Former players
Wanderer
1332
FORUM
NEW
TOPICS
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
TODAY
Quiz night
H.G.S.A
1
TODAY
Co-Captains for 2025
MjM
7
TODAY
Cornwall has a new owner
Huddersfield
1
TODAY
Callum Shaw
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Squad Numbers
phe13
4
TODAY
Rhinos squad numbers
Rixy
1
TODAY
Squad numbers
Warrior Wing
8
TODAY
Mat Crowther pre season update
Dunkirk Spir
1
TODAY
Mike Cooper podcast
rubber ducki
6
TODAY
Shirt reveal coming soon
Shifty Cat
47
TODAY
Opening Championship and League One Fixtures for 2025 Released
RLFANS News
1
NEWS ITEMS
VIEWS


Visit the RLFANS.COM SHOP
for more merchandise!