Re: 2017 | Out of Contract Players : Mon May 01, 2017 6:31 pm  

Gotcha wrote:

I have seen Smith throughout his career, and certainly from 14's upward he definitely was not larger than every kid on the opposition. He was a stand off for a lot of his junior days. His size came as he got older, not as you suggest. His attributes were not his size, that was a bonus later.

You mention Jack because you have just seen him play a couple of games. Jack is the same as he has always been, always had the talent. His talent is pace, and like Smith reading the game. You ask Jack who is the top players in his age group, and first named would be Smith.

In the U16s he is huge compared to his peer group go back and review some video footage.

So you are saying the real great parts of his game are te parts the Rhinos are not going to make much use of i.e. passing and Game reading - that seems very strange for a professional club?

Walker's class is his balanced running style and his basic speed not unlike Kalum that is not something you can coach - funny how Walker has played as many first team games as the outstanding player of his peer group? Real class is not a moment in time its permanent,

Re: 2017 | Out of Contract Players : Mon May 01, 2017 7:14 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

In the U16s he is huge compared to his peer group go back and review some video footage.

So you are saying the real great parts of his game are te parts the Rhinos are not going to make much use of i.e. passing and Game reading - that seems very strange for a professional club?

Walker's class is his balanced running style and his basic speed not unlike Kalum that is not something you can coach - funny how Walker has played as many first team games as the outstanding player of his peer group? Real class is not a moment in time its permanent,

He isn't in the U16's, he is in the 19's, and he wasn't the biggest when in the U16's. He was big but not the biggest, and he did play the pivot at that time.

I also said, they were the best parts of his game at Junior level, I didn't say now. Infact I was quite clear he is on a programme at the Rhinos, changing parts of his game.

Walker is a class player. And one I hope will be at the top for years, but he unlike Smith needs to add the physicality yet, which is the part that effects other areas. As is the same with other class players still to come through.

You are totally correct in your last sentence, so why on earth are you making these postings writing off young players?

Re: 2017 | Out of Contract Players : Mon May 01, 2017 7:39 pm  

Gotcha wrote:

He isn't in the U16's, he is in the 19's, and he wasn't the biggest when in the U16's. He was big but not the biggest, and he did play the pivot at that time.

I also said, they were the best parts of his game at Junior level, I didn't say now. Infact I was quite clear he is on a programme at the Rhinos, changing parts of his game.

Walker is a class player. And one I hope will be at the top for years, but he unlike Smith needs to add the physicality yet, which is the part that effects other areas. As is the same with other class players still to come through.

You are totally correct in your last sentence, so why on earth are you making these postings writing off young players?

Smith wasn't the pivot for the Leeds U16s did he ever play in the halves in the U16s? Walker played more games in the halves than Smith.

Because so many are over hyped and that view of them as youngsters sticks with them , If he doesn't turn into the superstar some predicted they will have a lot of egg on your face so they will defend the indefensible until it cannot be legitimately defended anymore. Morgan Smith was another potential superstars - that will not happen - Cameron Smith could well be the same = sometimes we have to admit the best juniors don't turn into the best Seniors. Walker oozes class even Ray Charles can see that - different animal.

Re: 2017 | Out of Contract Players : Mon May 01, 2017 8:22 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Smith wasn't the pivot for the Leeds U16s did he ever play in the halves in the U16s? Walker played more games in the halves than Smith.

Because so many are over hyped and that view of them as youngsters sticks with them , If he doesn't turn into the superstar some predicted they will have a lot of egg on your face so they will defend the indefensible until it cannot be legitimately defended anymore. Morgan Smith was another potential superstars - that will not happen - Cameron Smith could well be the same = sometimes we have to admit the best juniors don't turn into the best Seniors. Walker oozes class even Ray Charles can see that - different animal.

I don't know why you keep mentioning Jack, I know very well how good he is, I was talking about him long before you had heard of him, and of course he played more games in halfs that was his position, but everything revolved around Smith. He isn't the only one with class ready to step up too. Where you are wrong is what you are saying on Smith, including his size and junior days. The reason the lad is not in the first team is due to injuries, preventing him putting in a performance in the 19's, to give reason to pick him. But as you said class is permanent, and he will come good when settled. Morgan Smith also was already a Super League regular, but again has been injured and therefore out.

Re: 2017 | Out of Contract Players : Mon May 01, 2017 8:39 pm  

Gotcha wrote:

I don't know why you keep mentioning Jack, I know very well how good he is, I was talking about him long before you had heard of him, and of course he played more games in halfs that was his position, but everything revolved around Smith. He isn't the only one with class ready to step up too. Where you are wrong is what you are saying on Smith, including his size and junior days. The reason the lad is not in the first team is due to injuries, preventing him putting in a performance in the 19's, to give reason to pick him. But as you said class is permanent, and he will come good when settled. Morgan Smith also was already a Super League regular, but again has been injured and therefore out.

The point about Walker is nobody was talking about him being the next greatest thing as they were about Smith - virtually nobody was suggesting he should be a first team player before the start of this season - what it shows is that some juniors simply don't develop into top players where others don't.

On the size thing and the pivot thing we must agree to differ - he was the stand out player I would agree that is what is so frustrating that the Leeds system struggles to develop players.

So where is he going play in the first team - ahead of JJB, Ward, Ferres, Ablett, Keinhorst, Delanney, Walters you think he will get picked before these?

Morgan Smith was a bit player at Warrington in and out of the side never a starter when they had a full side to pick from a bit like Daniel Smith at Huddersfield

Re: 2017 | Out of Contract Players : Tue May 02, 2017 4:57 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

The point about Walker is nobody was talking about him being the next greatest thing as they were about Smith - virtually nobody was suggesting he should be a first team player before the start of this season - what it shows is that some juniors simply don't develop into top players where others don't.

On the size thing and the pivot thing we must agree to differ - he was the stand out player I would agree that is what is so frustrating that the Leeds system struggles to develop players.

So where is he going play in the first team - ahead of JJB, Ward, Ferres, Ablett, Keinhorst, Delanney, Walters you think he will get picked before these?

Morgan Smith was a bit player at Warrington in and out of the side never a starter when they had a full side to pick from a bit like Daniel Smith at Huddersfield

What I am saying David is that there is more to a players progression and being picked than whether they still have the class or not. Injuries are a massive factor for any player, and not only effect you physically but other areas too, and it is this bit where in some cases progression fails, not because they were over hyped. Although expectation does play a part in those other areas.

I don't think any of those players you mention are the same style of Smith. Of course though style will come from the coaches development here on in though, so yes it is open to guess. But all I have said is wait to see if recover from injuries before writing it off, because that is your reason.

Leeds also have another truely exceptional player in their under 19's. A player constantly injured, who keeps coming back, luckily. Whether his luck changes will determine his career, but that doesn't make his quality any less. Leeds know it, and have continued to back him, hoping his luck changes, because the quality is worth it.

Re: 2017 | Out of Contract Players : Tue May 02, 2017 5:40 am  

I wouldn't suggest letting Smith go until we've actually seen what he's capable of.

In terms of the others I'd be looking at letting as many of our bog average forwards go as we can. As someone else said I'd make an exception in playing terms for JJB who does seem to be integral to the team ethos.

I can't see how we can try to scrape by another year with both Burrow and McGuire around, unless McGuire was willing to accept becoming a bit part player and Burrow is happy off the bench. Whilst Burrow keeps his speed he's worth keeping for that alone.

Re: 2017 | Out of Contract Players : Tue May 02, 2017 7:17 am  

Gotcha wrote:

What I am saying David is that there is more to a players progression and being picked than whether they still have the class or not. Injuries are a massive factor for any player, and not only effect you physically but other areas too, and it is this bit where in some cases progression fails, not because they were over hyped. Although expectation does play a part in those other areas.

I don't think any of those players you mention are the same style of Smith. Of course though style will come from the coaches development here on in though, so yes it is open to guess. But all I have said is wait to see if recover from injuries before writing it off, because that is your reason.

Leeds also have another truely exceptional player in their under 19's. A player constantly injured, who keeps coming back, luckily. Whether his luck changes will determine his career, but that doesn't make his quality any less. Leeds know it, and have continued to back him, hoping his luck changes, because the quality is worth it.

Also just to add to this Sal, you mention nobody had spoken of Jack Walker before this season as first team. Again that is wrong, he has been spoken of many times by those that have an interest in the academy players. The only reason for not pushing it was because Jack was given a target weight before first team, and he wasn't at that weight yet.

Indeed back in the under 16's with that team, I was asked on this forum whom I thought would make it as super league players, and I named 9 players. 3 of which were from the under 15's, so too young to make a mark yet. But of the six of the 16's, whom Jack was one, 3 have already made their debuts, one I am confident will do over the next few weeks, and one being the lad with a run of injuries I was talking about above. Those injuries and how it responds are important to a players development, and any of those three that have made debuts could easily have had the same bad luck.

Re: 2017 | Out of Contract Players : Tue May 02, 2017 6:12 pm  

Heard a whisper Holroyd Johnson Moorhouse Martin Broadbent & Spence have got deals.

Re: 2017 | Out of Contract Players : Tue May 02, 2017 7:22 pm  

RHINO-MARK wrote:

Heard a whisper Holroyd Johnson Moorhouse Martin Broadbent & Spence have got deals.

Been offered deals, not yet able to sign, I don't think.

Spence is typical of someone getting a deal based on contacts.