: Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:56 am  

G1 wrote:

No. I dont mean beat them, I mean comprehensively out play them and take them to the cleaners, like Smith's sides did twice in 2007. We blew them away in the league encounter at Headingley and in the GF with some exhilerating rugby. Mclennan's wins last year were nowhere near the same manner and I take nothing away from our GF win.

Of course it could be as simple as Saints have improved since then, which they quite obviously have.

G1 wrote:

The problem is the coach IMO. We were very, very flat yesterday apart from the last 15 mins. They were 1st to all the loose balls. Look at the PTB before Gidley's 2nd half try. We had three tacklers, none of who were off the floor by the time the tackled player had played the ball.

You have mentioned in the past that a great coach improves players. Do you think JJB has improved under McLennan? What has happened to Burrow's defence? Where's the fluency in attack?

I have a suspicion that his arm around the shoulders and rah rah approach is starting to wear off and the team needs something with a little more substance.

Entirely agree. Everything there is spot on. But a change of tune to your comments of recent weeks, about everything is fine and we are top of the league.

G1 wrote:

Agreed. Kylie was grasping several times today. I'd assumed Bailey was still injured but of he was ommitted that is a huge gaff on Mclennan's part.

Again entirely agree.

: Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:09 am  

DISA wrote:

But a change of tune to your comments of recent weeks, about everything is fine and we are top of the league.

? What are you on about?

: Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:14 am  

G1 wrote:

? What are you on about?

You are questioning our coach and his tactics. You have questioned that players have not improved under him.

You are correct.

Recently you have been slagging off posters for questioning how poor we are playing, saying everything is fine and we are top of the league.

If thats not a contradiction I dont know what is. Therefore a change of tune.

Your posts today are correct.

: Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:29 am  

DISA wrote:

Recently you have been slagging off posters for questioning how poor we are playing, saying everything is fine and we are top of the league.
.

Have I?

When?

: Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:37 am  

Eccleshill Rhino wrote:

What like he did in October 2008 - they played Saints 4 times last year and won twice - might have a chance the next time we play them it is the week after the CC final?

Not if we include all the times they played Saints last year.

Under Brian McClennan V St Helens:

Played 7, Won 2, Drawn 0, Lost 5, Pts For 112, Pts Agst 164 (Avg Scr 16-23) 29%

On average Leeds are no longer within a score of St Helens and it shows.

Just as a reference, under Tony Smith:

Played 14, Won 7, Drawn 0, Lost 7, Pts For 329, Pts Agst 301 (Avg Scr 24-22) 29%

: Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:39 am  

tvoc wrote:

Not if we include all the times they played Saints last year.

Under Brian McClennan V St Helens:

Played 7, Won 2, Drawn 0, Lost 5, Pts For 112, Pts Agst 164 (Avg Scr 16-23) 29%

On average Leeds are no longer within a score of St Helens and it shows.

Just as a reference, under Tony Smith:

Played 14, Won 7, Drawn 0, Lost 7, Pts For 329, Pts Agst 301 (Avg Scr 24-22) 29%

A bit unfair tvoc Tony smith was here 4 yrs!!!

: Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:53 am  

rhinoms wrote:

A bit unfair tvoc Tony smith was here 4 yrs!!!

So you'd rather I compared their first seven games V St Helens instead then?

Brian McClennan:

Played 7, Won 2, Drawn 0, Lost 5, Pts For 112, Pts Agst 164 (Avg Scr 16-23) 29%

Tony Smith:

Played 7, Won 4, Drawn 0, Lost 3, Pts For 192, Pts Agst 171 (Avg Scr 27-24) 57%

Is that better?

: Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:00 am  

tvoc wrote:

So you'd rather I compared their first seven games V St Helens instead then?

Brian McClennan:

Played 7, Won 2, Drawn 0, Lost 5, Pts For 112, Pts Agst 164 (Avg Scr 16-23) 29%

Tony Smith:

Played 7, Won 4, Drawn 0, Lost 3, Pts For 192, Pts Agst 171 (Avg Scr 27-24) 57%

Is that better?

From a Saints perspective on this I would say TS built Leeds to what they are now in those 4 years - a steady blooding of younger players and a harderned defence.

Out of the 7 we won, I'd like to see the breakdown of wins we had. I'd bet they were well before he left. In 2007 I always maintained Leeds were the best team in the comp although we finished in the top place in the regulare season. They beat us 3 out of 4 times if you include the play offs and they only lost the GF qualifier by 2 points.

Under McClennan, they obviously have a coach who can get the players up for when it matters - the GF and the Tri Nations testify to that - but I think they are less threatening, IMO.

I hope Saints can take the GF this year, but our lack of depth may catch us out and I still think Leeds and Saints are by far ahead of anyone else in the League. A sensible tip may well be Leeds to win the GF. Especially if it rains.

: Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:31 am  

eddiewaringsflatcap wrote:

Out of the 7 we won, I'd like to see the breakdown of wins we had. I'd bet they were well before he left. In 2007 I always maintained Leeds were the best team in the comp although we finished in the top place in the regulare season. They beat us 3 out of 4 times if you include the play offs and they only lost the GF qualifier by 2 points.

From the St Helens viewpoint where obviously a loss becomes a win:

13-Mar-04 ….. CC - 05 ….. Away ….. Lost 24 - 14
30-Apr-04 ….. 09 - 09 ….. Away ….. Lost 56 - 10
23-Jul-04 ….. 09 - 20 ….. Home ….. Won 70 - 0
10-Sep-04 ….. 09 - 27 ….. Away ….. Won 19 - 25
18-Feb-05 ….. 10 - 02 ….. Home ….. Won 30 - 18
27-May-05 ….. 10 - 15 ….. Away ….. Lost 38 - 24
30-Sep-05 ….. PO - QSF ….. Away ….. Won 16 - 19
24-Feb-06 ….. 11 - 03 ….. Away ….. Lost 13 - 4
22-Jul-06 ….. 11 - 22 ….. Home ….. Lost 14 - 18
09-Sep-06 ….. 11 - 27 ….. Away ….. Lost 54 - 18
21-Apr-07 ….. 12 - 11 ….. Home ….. Won 38 - 19
06-Jul-07 ….. 12 - 19 ….. Away ….. Won 10 - 22
28-Sep-07 ….. PO - QSF ….. Away ….. Lost 10 - 8
13-Oct-07 ….. PO - GF ….. Neutral ….. Won 6 - 33

2007 was payback for 2006.

Re: My thoughts on today : Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:31 am  

EmmaMur01 wrote:

1). We were not good enough and beaten by the best team, having said that.......
2). All you ask for is a level playing field. The ref didn't give us that today. How the hell he got this match I will never know.
3). Our best players today were Burrow and Keef.
4). What does Buderus offer us at the moment???
5). We missed a bit of biff , (e.g bailey) in our fowards.
6). We need a centre. ASAP
7). Nice to see the ex rl players supporting prescott. Connolly is still very fit!!!!

1) Definitely true.
2) Also true, but it didn't affect the result.
3) Agree about Senior but not Burrow. I thought we lacked some direction and cohesion in midfield - we had chances to score (i.e. possession in the right area) but didn't take them and looked short of ideas. Burrow has to take some responsibility for this.
4) Buderus' passing was suspect today. Looked rusty, but neither hooker excelled.
5) Agree. Bailey's absence was exacerbated by Leuluai being our worst player, Burgess not having a good game and Kirke seeming to have little game time.
6) I think Gibson's getting some undeserved stick on here. I thought he did OK - didn't let anyone down in defence and I remember him putting Donald in space on the outside twice in the first half, the first one he dropped, the second he was tackled by Gilmour.
7) Agree.

I think our major deficiencies were front row and playmaking. I was disappointed that Burrow didn't control the game better, especially as Long was missing for them. In terms of changes, we're a little short of options dur to a lack of depth in the forwards in particular. I'd hope Bailey will play on Friday, possibly starting with Burgess and having Peacock in second row. A definite change must be to switch Donald to left wing - he looks a shadow of the player he was last year. I thought that when Lauitiiti offloaded to him in the second half and he was tackled into touch on the South Stand side that he didn't seem to be able to step off his right foot - unsurprising for a left winger! He's had a season and a few games on the right wing and been hit and miss. In two seasons on the left wing he was the best winger in the competition. He looks distinctly average now.