: Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:58 am  

gateaux wrote:

It is possible I know people who did it, you can't do it having a job that works 2 or 3 hours a week its hard work but its possible if you want to - and thats the problem too many take debt for granted and think it didn't matter.

I lived at home and worked damn hard simply because I knew couldn't afford to live away - its about living within your means, I would have loved to move away to uni but it wasn't possible. But we have a society who on the whole are uncapable of living within their means so why is it a shock most students can't.

bang on.

: Sat Apr 25, 2009 12:13 pm  

J O N N Y wrote:

Thats all fair enough, it really is, but that isnt how it is, nor how it will probably be ever again. universities will accept anyone who is willing to pay, and with the debt culture that we live in, that is just about anyone who applies.

Universities have always accepted anyone who pays - particularly overseas students. There should be a scholarship scheme that covers the fees and living expenses (to a reasonable amount) of the top 5-10% of academic achievers. The old grant system was means tested but even posh kids got their fees paid and their housing benefit etc. (as it should be in my view - they are independent adults and should be treated as such).
Universities have lost track of what they really are and if you dilute them out you will have less quality and more quantity. We wouldn't want SL to revert back to one division containing all pro/semi pro teams would we?
It's just not the right place for most of the people who are there, and it's become a substitue for actually creating employment and careers for young people out of school. Eventually natural selection will apply and a top tier will emerge (if it's not happened already), only this time the top tier will be as unnacessable to the lower waged as University was pre-war.

: Sat Apr 25, 2009 2:24 pm  

Dave Heron's Moustache wrote:

Universities have always accepted anyone who pays - particularly overseas students. There should be a scholarship scheme that covers the fees and living expenses (to a reasonable amount) of the top 5-10% of academic achievers. The old grant system was means tested but even posh kids got their fees paid and their housing benefit etc. (as it should be in my view - they are independent adults and should be treated as such).
Universities have lost track of what they really are and if you dilute them out you will have less quality and more quantity. We wouldn't want SL to revert back to one division containing all pro/semi pro teams would we?
It's just not the right place for most of the people who are there, and it's become a substitue for actually creating employment and careers for young people out of school. Eventually natural selection will apply and a top tier will emerge (if it's not happened already), only this time the top tier will be as unnacessable to the lower waged as University was pre-war.

I understand your point, particularly on the academic subjects, but then I disagree with you too.

I'm also of a vintage where a university entry had to be earned the hard way rather than simply progressed into, but at the same time those who had earned it the hard way were generally funded through their course with no debt at the end of it other than their beer money (and bank overdrafts weren't handed out like confetti either).

I started Grammar School with 120 other lads in my year, by the time we got to the first year sixth to do A levels only 30 or so remained and some, including me, dropped out after the first year sixth.

Of those 30 only a handful went on to a Uni of some description and that was as many as the university system could handle, entry levels were extremely high so that only the very gifted were accepted and the courses were generally limited to the "professions", science, law, medicine etc.

I prefer the system now.

My eldest is two years through a Uni course that she simply had to ask to be on, yes she had to achieve certain marks but there was always going to be room for her and as many students who wanted to attend - I've no doubt that you'll argue that thats because the standards have been lowered to ensure that as many as possible are included in the system but I'd argue that I'd rather have 80% of students going through A levels and further education beyond that than have 80% of 16 year olds thrown into the workforce and only a tiny percent of 18 year olds be accepted at a few Universities.

Which ever way you look at it we have a more educated population now than we ever did when I was 20 years old.

: Sat Apr 25, 2009 3:16 pm  

Jord Rhinosaur wrote:

I get a lot of help off my parents, who as most people know, are very good to me.

If I didn't get this help, there's no way I'd be able to live away for uni. For example, my dad paid my £350 housing deposit yesterday, there's no way I could afford that.

A lot of people aren't in the situation to be able to have hand outs from Mummy and Daddy to make life easier for them through uni though, if you are in the position to do so it makes having a massive overdraft even more stupid in my opinion as there really is little need for it with some hard work and common sense.

As for the point on who gets into university I can see both sides of the argument, yes its good that pretty much anyone who wants to go to university can do but does this system devalue the idea of having a degree? Does it mean as much now as it did 20 years ago to be a graduate? It now seems to be expected that 18 year olds will go to University rather than it being something only the "best" in that field would do.

: Sat Apr 25, 2009 4:44 pm  

McLaren_Field wrote:

I understand your point, particularly on the academic subjects, but then I disagree with you too.

I'm also of a vintage where a university entry had to be earned the hard way rather than simply progressed into, but at the same time those who had earned it the hard way were generally funded through their course with no debt at the end of it other than their beer money (and bank overdrafts weren't handed out like confetti either).

I started Grammar School with 120 other lads in my year, by the time we got to the first year sixth to do A levels only 30 or so remained and some, including me, dropped out after the first year sixth.

Of those 30 only a handful went on to a Uni of some description and that was as many as the university system could handle, entry levels were extremely high so that only the very gifted were accepted and the courses were generally limited to the "professions", science, law, medicine etc.

I prefer the system now.

My eldest is two years through a Uni course that she simply had to ask to be on, yes she had to achieve certain marks but there was always going to be room for her and as many students who wanted to attend - I've no doubt that you'll argue that thats because the standards have been lowered to ensure that as many as possible are included in the system but I'd argue that I'd rather have 80% of students going through A levels and further education beyond that than have 80% of 16 year olds thrown into the workforce and only a tiny percent of 18 year olds be accepted at a few Universities.

Which ever way you look at it we have a more educated population now than we ever did when I was 20 years old.

I don't think we are that far apart. I posted earlier that I think University has become a universal dumping ground for 18 year olds. There are better places to educate, train etc. young people - and get the best out of them and not have them lumbered with debt. The older Uni's are/were places of academic study. There was a criminal lack of investment in young people in this country for a long time. Something needed to be done but dumping everyone into existing Universities or new ones created in some cases from 6th form colleges was not the way. I suspect it was the easiest way, but not the best. I also would have struggled to go these days, and I suspect there are lots of bright kids who are put off by the debt involved.
I do agree that we have the most educated population probably ever, but also the most in debt.

And just to say, I am book smart - I understand what I do and was always able to easily absorb the science I studied and understand what was going on. But I don't think I'm particularly clever and never have. There's lots of things I wouldn't have a clue about that non-uni educated people do every day extremely well. Uni made me able to function in the industry I work in, but I did warehouse work at Kays in Leeds one summer, and I was totally unable to master most of the work there (and they tried me on everything). I was only fit for taking pallets up in the goods lift. My wife, who left school at 18 to work as an adminstrator at Lang Homes is far smarter than I am, and could earn more money up until the last couple of years.

: Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:04 pm  

Jord Rhinosaur wrote:

It's nigh on impossible to live at uni without going in to an overdraft. I was left with £112 of my last loan after my rent was paid, how is that supposed to last 3 months until the next installment?

I disagree with the comment that it is nigh on impossible to live at uni without going in an Overdraft. I often in the first year and 2nd year wish I had an Overdraft when I only had 4 pounds and 30 pence to last me till pay day. Luckily pay day was 3 hours later. I have to budget within my means. Some weeks I had 150 pound to live with, and one week i had 27 pound. I asked my dad if it was best to get an Overdraft and his answer was "that is the easy way out, just don't go out this week, simple" I hate it at times that I am a student and "don't have a 9 to 5 job", but I do disagree with the sentiment that it is nigh on impossible to live without an Overdraft.
I thought you had a weekly/monthly payment from your grand parents anyway Jord?

As for the loan lasting you 3 months, don't you live on your job?
I literally live on my wage. It's rubbish really, and depressing at times when you can only go out once every 2 weeks, and work every Friday and Saturday night when i have to miss Rugby and can't go out on boozy weekends away, but I look at it that I only have one year left after these next few weeks, and then I will be able to have a "clean slate" as it were, and then try and get mortgage etc.


With alot of people getting loans and then alot getting grants, I don't know how people need multiple over drafts. Well I do, there too lazy to get a fecking job. some lads I know in one house turn upto around 3 hours a week of lectures and are in bed till around 2pm every day. That bores the hell out of me personally, but each to there own I guess.

: Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:35 pm  

lainey wrote: In 2010 all Unis will have the opportunity to raise their fees to £5,000. All Unis will be increasing their fees in 2010 not just Leeds Met.

rhinofox wrote:

:shock: What is this right? Since when?

No, it's not right.

: Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:57 pm  

Invincible wrote:

I disagree with the comment that it is nigh on impossible to live at uni without going in an Overdraft. I often in the first year and 2nd year wish I had an Overdraft when I only had 4 pounds and 30 pence to last me till pay day. Luckily pay day was 3 hours later. I have to budget within my means. Some weeks I had 150 pound to live with, and one week i had 27 pound. I asked my dad if it was best to get an Overdraft and his answer was "that is the easy way out, just don't go out this week, simple" I hate it at times that I am a student and "don't have a 9 to 5 job", but I do disagree with the sentiment that it is nigh on impossible to live without an Overdraft.
I thought you had a weekly/monthly payment from your grand parents anyway Jord?

As for the loan lasting you 3 months, don't you live on your job?
I literally live on my wage. It's rubbish really, and depressing at times when you can only go out once every 2 weeks, and work every Friday and Saturday night when i have to miss Rugby and can't go out on boozy weekends away, but I look at it that I only have one year left after these next few weeks, and then I will be able to have a "clean slate" as it were, and then try and get mortgage etc.


With alot of people getting loans and then alot getting grants, I don't know how people need multiple over drafts. Well I do, there too lazy to get a fecking job. some lads I know in one house turn upto around 3 hours a week of lectures and are in bed till around 2pm every day. That bores the hell out of me personally, but each to there own I guess.

I get roughly £150 a month off various members of my family, it's still not enough to live off.

Granted things are a lot better for me this term as I am working, I regret not getting a job sooner.

: Sun Apr 26, 2009 8:01 pm  

Jord Rhinosaur wrote:

I get roughly £150 a month off various members of my family, it's still not enough to live off.
Granted things are a lot better for me this term as I am working, I regret not getting a job sooner.

Stay out of the fooking pub then!!!

: Sun Apr 26, 2009 8:03 pm  

rhinoms wrote:

Stay out of the fooking pub then!!!

I spend roughly £50 a week, £20 of which goes on shopping, I'd spend a lot more than £30 a week on socialising at home than I do down here.