Re: Smith out ASAP : Sat Mar 23, 2024 2:20 pm  

leeds owl wrote:

Genuine answer, lots of small decision throughout the game. Pointless going through them, because as a supporter right/wrong decisions are only ever subjective. You would counter them from a Saints perspective and rightly so. The hangover from 2022, and perceived bias towards Saints with the Morgan Knowles farrago, cleared when appealing an appeal in contrast to Leeds players getting extended bans for frivolous appeals is a hangover that is failing to clear for me. Lomax disappointed me last season by lying openly to a match official to get McDonnell sent off, and that certainly coloured my view of this current Saints team, and once more made me question the integrity of match officials. As a Saints fan, what was your view of Lomax claiming he’d been the victim of a punch that never happened ?

Okay the fact you accept that that the decisions are small and subjective leads me to one of two conclusions;
1. that Saints fans are equally capable at pointing at small decisions subjectively, and therefore on balance there is no bias because the reality is referees are always going to be somewhere in between
2. You don’t accept Saints fans are able to point at decisions they subjectively think are wrong, so accept your opinion is subjective in Saints indiscretion but objective on Leeds … which would be quite the position to take.
Since you admit you are in the first group, I can’t see how you can subsequently complain of a grand conspiracy. Your coach (and some fans) complain about a slow ruck, yet as a saints fan all I can see is Saints dominating tackles over and over, with very few Leeds players trying to support their own team in winning the ruck. Bentley is your best at this and always has been one of his strengths, but compare that to Mata’utia who basically turned several plays in to mauls at times to help the ball carrier build momentum.

As for 2023 disciplinary, between rounds 1 and 17, Saints were the most penalised team by the MRP by a factor of 2 to 3 times the next nearest worst offenders. If I recall correctly Saints had had 11 incidents deemed ban worth in that time frame with other teams (like Huddersfield) sat on 1 incident. There were a huge number of discrepancy, such as the RFL bringing in medical professionals into the Knowles Easter ban for the tackle on Cooper, a precedent that hadn’t been seen before and hasn’t been seen since. I can’t speak for what happened in Leeds appeals, but based on the bits I read about the Newman ban for gobbing off, the RFL are right in saying they were frivolous because Leeds didn’t provide any new evidence; your defence (at least publicly) was “nuh-uh” which isn’t the basis of an appeal. What Saints did with Knowles, and other appeals is evidence how the RFL didn’t follow their own process, which is why the ban couldn’t stand. The penny seems to have dropped for most clubs in this regard now.

As for the Lomax incident; presumably your as equally disappointed in Bentley for taking about 10 seconds to decide whether to milk a crusher tackle or not as he hovered between going to clutch his head and play the ball as half the Leeds team screamed at the ref?

Re: Smith out ASAP : Sat Mar 23, 2024 2:23 pm  

KaeruJim wrote:

Maybe we just disagree with your assessment of Bentley?

He got stuck in to his D again but I thought he played better last week than this. I still maintain that if you want that type of player in the pack, McDonnell is technically better and a little bigger too.

I agree with Swoggy Loiner in that Bentley would look a different player in a good pack. He is on yhe small side but always gives 100% and sets the example in terms of committment and effort.Hes not international class as hes not big enough at that level but hes not Leeds problem. We have players with size they just don't play to it.Sangare same weight and size as Walmsley!
Holroyd over a stone haevier than Matty Lees!
McDonnell half a stone heavier than Morgan Knowles.
The saints men run harder tackle harder and play longer minutes than the leeds players named. They may be more experienced but its their attitude that is the biggest difference. Bentley is never going to win us a big game but with the right players and attitude around him he will keep us in games with his defence or as in last night help keep the score down!

Re: Smith out ASAP : Sat Mar 23, 2024 2:25 pm  

The other way of looking at it is the Leeds players are not good enough and never will be or the coaching and mindset preparation is not good enough. One or other has to change!

Re: Smith out ASAP : Sat Mar 23, 2024 2:27 pm  

Rommel wrote:

Hanley & Newman would get in the Saints side but i would not swap anyone else out?

Leeds missing Walters this season massively

They wouldn’t mate. Saint’s fans wouldn’t want that either. Their centres and wingers are better. Not physically what Saints would be looking for. They have higher standards…..

Re: Smith out ASAP : Sat Mar 23, 2024 2:46 pm  

fanstanningley wrote:

So you don't actually know.

I'm not a computer hacker so I don't know how to look at people's bank accounts to see how much they earn. So I can only guess. Generally people with more experience tend to be payed more. My point was [as you well know] we should have had a coach with top grade experience.

Re: Smith out ASAP : Sat Mar 23, 2024 2:55 pm  

fanstanningley wrote:

Sangare 6.33 Metres per carry this season Holroyd 6.11 Mik 7.31 Lisone 7.21

Metres or all very well but doses he ever break a tackle?

Re: Smith out ASAP : Sat Mar 23, 2024 3:27 pm  

If the chopping block isn't currently being prepared for Smiths head, there is something wrong.

The club have thrown a considerable amount of money and faith in recruiting the players that Smith wanted to bring in, but we do not look any better for it. Baring the big name signings, our recruitment this year is flawed. We lack any decent cover for a winger that is plagued with injuries, and are still way too lightweight in the pack. I got criticised on here last year for saying the pack was too lightweight, and I still see this to be true. Even the heavier forwards don't seem to play to their size.

The onfield tactics are still subpar, too. We are losing more yards than we gain every set, meaning we are constantly in the wrong end of the pitch, and when we do get in the oppositions half we fail to turn that possession into points time and time again. We seem to only be able to score from deep. Leeds have a backline that should be feared, but we can't seem to finish, and the forwards seem incapable of being able to consistently get us into a position to pile on pressure.

The team selection last night was doomed to fail. We are already back to forcing square pegs into round holes. When I saw the team sheet, I knew the odds were against us. If Momirovski was being picked, why not keep Roberts on the wing, drop Martin back into SR, and play Mom in the centres where he has proven to be a good link between Newman and Handley? Then we release a bench spot for Goudemand, too. I don't even think Roberts was utilised from the bench, was he?

Everything points to Rohan Smith being at fault to me. Poor recruitment, poor selection, inefficient tactics, daft plays forcing errors, yardage lost through passive defence, yardage not gained from talented players looking clueless.... the list goes on.

If GH isn't already keeping an eye out for other coaching options, then he has wasted his money bringing in the likes of Croft and Ackers. They are proving to be wasted under Rohan Smiths coaching. I can't see things improving drastically when the better weather comes like some are hoping.

Re: Smith out ASAP : Sat Mar 23, 2024 3:33 pm  

Loiner at large wrote:

I agree with Swoggy Loiner in that Bentley would look a different player in a good pack. He is on yhe small side but always gives 100% and sets the example in terms of committment and effort.Hes not international class as hes not big enough at that level but hes not Leeds problem. We have players with size they just don't play to it.Sangare same weight and size as Walmsley!
Holroyd over a stone haevier than Matty Lees!
McDonnell half a stone heavier than Morgan Knowles.
The saints men run harder tackle harder and play longer minutes than the leeds players named. They may be more experienced but its their attitude that is the biggest difference. Bentley is never going to win us a big game but with the right players and attitude around him he will keep us in games with his defence or as in last night help keep the score down!

Apart from the Play off semi final at Wigan a couple of years ago!!

Anyway, you’re spot on mate, it’s easy to listen to idiots on TV who call him a nobody but then big up McIllorum in the same breath. What Bentley lacks in physical stature, he sure makes up for in effort and has a heart the size of a dustbin lid.

Re: Smith out ASAP : Sat Mar 23, 2024 4:07 pm  

Magic Superbeetle wrote:

Okay the fact you accept that that the decisions are small and subjective leads me to one of two conclusions;
1. that Saints fans are equally capable at pointing at small decisions subjectively, and therefore on balance there is no bias because the reality is referees are always going to be somewhere in between
2. You don’t accept Saints fans are able to point at decisions they subjectively think are wrong, so accept your opinion is subjective in Saints indiscretion but objective on Leeds … which would be quite the position to take.
Since you admit you are in the first group, I can’t see how you can subsequently complain of a grand conspiracy. Your coach (and some fans) complain about a slow ruck, yet as a saints fan all I can see is Saints dominating tackles over and over, with very few Leeds players trying to support their own team in winning the ruck. Bentley is your best at this and always has been one of his strengths, but compare that to Mata’utia who basically turned several plays in to mauls at times to help the ball carrier build momentum.

As for 2023 disciplinary, between rounds 1 and 17, Saints were the most penalised team by the MRP by a factor of 2 to 3 times the next nearest worst offenders. If I recall correctly Saints had had 11 incidents deemed ban worth in that time frame with other teams (like Huddersfield) sat on 1 incident. There were a huge number of discrepancy, such as the RFL bringing in medical professionals into the Knowles Easter ban for the tackle on Cooper, a precedent that hadn’t been seen before and hasn’t been seen since. I can’t speak for what happened in Leeds appeals, but based on the bits I read about the Newman ban for gobbing off, the RFL are right in saying they were frivolous because Leeds didn’t provide any new evidence; your defence (at least publicly) was “nuh-uh” which isn’t the basis of an appeal. What Saints did with Knowles, and other appeals is evidence how the RFL didn’t follow their own process, which is why the ban couldn’t stand. The penny seems to have dropped for most clubs in this regard now.

As for the Lomax incident; presumably your as equally disappointed in Bentley for taking about 10 seconds to decide whether to milk a crusher tackle or not as he hovered between going to clutch his head and play the ball as half the Leeds team screamed at the ref?

The difference here is that Lomax lied. The incident just didn't happen. There was no punch. He made it up. He lied. And the official, the weak minded fool, accepted his word.

Re: Smith out ASAP : Sat Mar 23, 2024 4:32 pm  

mattsrhinos1978 wrote:

You do relise that the forward pack you are slagging off have all been signed, or re-signed to longer deals by Smith?

At the same time, you are both....advocating Smith and his rebuild, whilst stating the players he's bringing in or re-signing for the rebuild are not good enough

You can't rebuild an entire team in two years in a salary capped sport, it will take years to sort out the mess we're in. The only way to be at the top is through academy players (as proved by Leeds formerly, and Saints + Wigan now) and then the purchased players are the icing on the cake. Sangare, McDonnell, Holdroyd, Gannon, Hudson & TNW could be a great pack, but only if they live up to their potential in 3 years time. Can't have everything now, just doesn't work like that.