: Sun May 17, 2009 4:21 pm  

tvoc wrote:

They had enough faith to continue with him at left centre V Les Catalans yesterday where he repaid that faith by scoring the winner.

Let's wait and see the extent of the latest Soliola injury.

yes, maybe Saints will find that the solution to their needs from centres isn't so easily filled by an external signing and maybe lies with promoting a youngster.

Imagine a club that would do that eh?

: Sun May 17, 2009 5:19 pm  

G1 wrote:

yes, maybe Saints will find that the solution to their needs from centres isn't so easily filled by an external signing and maybe lies with promoting a youngster.

Imagine a club that would do that eh?

You can only do that if you have a quality youngster coming through who is ready when asked to make the step up. From what I've seen so far Gary Wheeler is one such youngster.

If a club doesn't have such a player ready then what should they do?

: Sun May 17, 2009 6:04 pm  

G1 wrote:

I like having a good discussion with TVOC. I like to think I am helping him see more than just the stats when it comes to rugby

Sometimes, I'll argue the contrary even if I agree with him, just for the sake of a quality debate, but don't let him know that

Just to return to the Hall & stats thread. Whist I agree he has improved a lot this season we should not get carried overboard particularly with regard to stats. Stats do not take into account that fact that Hall has the great benefit of playing outside Senior this season. Also we make most of our effective attacks down the left as Web links as a left side SO. So of course he has much more chance to make the extra metres and scores. One stat is missing. How many points per game does Hall give away with bad handling?

Stats show Peacock making the most metres but don't show that many times his 'extra metre gained' results in slow PLB's and so wasted attacking opportunities- one of our big problems this year. Quick PLB's are more important than individual's extra metres gained. Saints are masters at the timing of going to ground early and getting up quickly so their attack is moving forward before the defence is ready. Fielden in his prime at Bradford was a master of this tactic but it doesn't show in the stats.

: Sun May 17, 2009 7:28 pm  

Juan Cornetto wrote:

Just to return to the Hall & stats thread. Whist I agree he has improved a lot this season we should not get carried overboard particularly with regard to stats. Stats do not take into account that fact that Hall has the great benefit of playing outside Senior this season. Also we make most of our effective attacks down the left as Web links as a left side SO. So of course he has much more chance to make the extra metres and scores. One stat is missing. How many points per game does Hall give away with bad handling?

Stats show Peacock making the most metres but don't show that many times his 'extra metre gained' results in slow PLB's and so wasted attacking opportunities- one of our big problems this year. Quick PLB's are more important than individual's extra metres gained. Saints are masters at the timing of going to ground early and getting up quickly so their attack is moving forward before the defence is ready. Fielden in his prime at Bradford was a master of this tactic but it doesn't show in the stats.

I've said before and possibly earlier in this thread that statistics aren't the be all and end in in adjudging a players' performances.

I've not based my praise for Hall on his statistics alone but my general view of his play. What the statistics doe help though (especially with a winger) is with an indicator of work rate. Halls statistics in this regard are phenomenal. I think overall, in terms of consistency in what has been a pretty sub par season so far Hall has been our best player.

Of course, playing outside a quality centre will help but TVOC demonstrated on a thread a few weeks back that Hall was actually performing very well on the right wing last year.

How many points per game does Hall give away? I think his handling is fine. You're not blaming Cas' try on Friday on him are you? If so I'd take another look at the pass given to him by the dummy half which would've been hard to take in dry weather.

: Mon May 18, 2009 12:58 am  

G1 wrote: Of course, playing outside a quality centre will help but TVOC demonstrated on a thread a few weeks back that Hall was actually performing very well on the right wing last year. To supplement that comment I also posted this on the St Helens forum after the Murrayfield Magic weekend: Ryan Hall's 2009 tries: V Celtic (H) - Intercept off a Tony Duggan pass V Hull KR (A) - Pass received from Paul McShane V Manly (N) - Pass received from Ali Lauitiiti V Wigan (H) - Pass received from Ali Lauitiiti, High Kick by Rob Burrow V St Helens (A) - Pass received from Brent Webb V Les Catalans (H) - Pass received from Keith Senior, Grubber Kick by Danny McGuire V Salford (H) - Pass received from Keith Senior V Huddersfield (A) - Pass received from Keith Senior V Les Catalans (N) - High Kick by Rob Burrow, Pass received from Ali Lauitiiti Senior has been directly involved in three of the twelve (25%), the same as Lauitiiti. The point here is that wingers are not solely reliant on their centre's supply of ball and as good as Senior has been (and continues to be) Hall deserves some credit as a try scorer. He also scored tries on the right last season without a settled centre to feed off and Leeds' right wing (Hall/Smith) outscored Donald on the left two to one over the final twelve matches of last season. Out of date now with Senior supplying the pass for Hall's try on Friday night at Castleford but you get the drift.

G1 wrote: Of course, playing outside a quality centre will help but TVOC demonstrated on a thread a few weeks back that Hall was actually performing very well on the right wing last year. To supplement that comment I also posted this on the St Helens forum after the Murrayfield Magic weekend: Ryan Hall's 2009 tries: V Celtic (H) - Intercept off a Tony Duggan pass V Hull KR (A) - Pass received from Paul McShane V Manly (N) - Pass received from Ali Lauitiiti V Wigan (H) - Pass received from Ali Lauitiiti, High Kick by Rob Burrow V St Helens (A) - Pass received from Brent Webb V Les Catalans (H) - Pass received from Keith Senior, Grubber Kick by Danny McGuire V Salford (H) - Pass received from Keith Senior V Huddersfield (A) - Pass received from Keith Senior V Les Catalans (N) - High Kick by Rob Burrow, Pass received from Ali Lauitiiti Senior has been directly involved in three of the twelve (25%), the same as Lauitiiti. The point here is that wingers are not solely reliant on their centre's supply of ball and as good as Senior has been (and continues to be) Hall deserves some credit as a try scorer. He also scored tries on the right last season without a settled centre to feed off and Leeds' right wing (Hall/Smith) outscored Donald on the left two to one over the final twelve matches of last season. Out of date now with Senior supplying the pass for Hall's try on Friday night at Castleford but you get the drift.