: Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:58 pm  

Richie wrote:

We'd really only expect to use three second rows in a game, and we have four players for those three spots. That's enough, particularly with the cover we have from pulling players from other positions.

Who is this we? Does it include Brian McClennan in 2009 with the limited squad he has at his disposal?

The only time any of your four designated second rowers haven't been required in the 17 on duty so far this season is when they have been unavailable through injury.

Hull KR (Away) Lauitiiti out injured
Warrington (Away) Kirke out injured
St Helens (Away) Kirke & Lauitiiti out injured

A total of 4 absences out of a possible 44 appearances. That doesn't leave much room for rotation, rest or recovery from injury.

Another prop (to release Kirke for his primary role) or another centre (to release Ablett for his primary role) were the minimum off-season requirements. Ambler/Manning/Brown/Gibson/Watkins don't appear to be trusted options even against the lesser lights of SL at the moment.

: Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:04 pm  

tvoc wrote:

Who is this we? Does it include Brian McClennan in 2009 with the limited squad he has at his disposal?

"We" is the sport of rugby league.
How any second rows do you expect to use in one game?

tvoc wrote:

The only time any of your four designated second rowers haven't been required in the 17 on duty so far this season is when they have been unavailable through injury.

Hull KR (Away) Lauitiiti out injured
Warrington (Away) Kirke out injured
St Helens (Away) Kirke & Lauitiiti out injured

A total of 4 absences out of a possible 44 appearances. That doesn't leave much room for rotation, rest or recovery from injury.

Another prop (to release Kirke for his primary role) or another centre (to release Ablett for his primary role) were the minimum off-season requirements. Ambler/Manning/Brown/Gibson/Watkins don't appear to be trusted options even against the lesser lights of SL at the moment.

Gibson and Watkins are the cover added to the team from last year, along with the emergence of Smith and Hall as. New singings push them down the selection order, and as we've seen so often, it's "use them or lose them" in these days of the salary cap.

: Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:05 pm  

Richie wrote:

FFS you might aswell compare Leon Pryce to Ryan Hall then
Webb, Donald, Smith, Senior Hall vs
Wellens, Gardner, Gidley, Gilmour, Meli
Only Gidley over Smith is a clear cut Saints win, but I'd rather take Smith's potential than the short terminsm of Gidley.

dear me... I'm going to leave it at that. I really am bored with this now...

: Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:06 pm  

rpw wrote:

:lol: dear me... I'm going to leave it at that. I really am bored with this now...

Good.

: Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:09 pm  

Richie wrote:

Good.

You'd pick argument with your own shadow...

: Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:10 pm  

rpw wrote:

:lol: You'd pick argument with your own shadow...

My shadow knows better than that.

: Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:13 pm  

Richie wrote:

My shadow knows better than that.

aye bet it does.

: Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:17 pm  

Richie wrote:

"We" is the sport of rugby league.
How any second rows do you expect to use in one game?

I'd have five props and use four of them each game, I'd then have 4 second rows and use three of them each game. My fourth bench spot this season would be Diskin/Buderus given their availability. The fifth prop and fourth second row would rotate with those selected and cover injuries to sinfield or McGuire/Burrow where Sinfield moves in to the halves.

Richie wrote:

Gibson and Watkins are the cover added to the team from last year, along with the emergence of Smith and Hall as. New singings push them down the selection order, and as we've seen so often, it's "use them or lose them" in these days of the salary cap.

Gibson offers very little as was already fairly evident before his injury, if his current contract is extended beyond 2009 at Leeds I'd be amazed. Watkins has potential but is 18 months away from being a reliable option at centre week in week out. In the meantime he plays against the lesser lights or when injuries dictate to gain his experience. He's under contract until 2012 so there should be no fear of losing him. Smith was this year's designated right centre but with first Webb's recovery and now his own injury we haven't had a chance to evaluate that gamble just yet. Only time will tell whether we ever get to see if the gamble paid off.

: Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:28 pm  

tvoc wrote:

I'd have five props and use four of them each game, I'd then have 4 second rows and use three of them each game. My fourth bench spot this season would be Diskin/Buderus given their availability. The fifth prop and fourth second row would rotate with those selected and cover injuries to sinfield or McGuire/Burrow where Sinfield moves in to the halves.

Aren't we OK for that though? Just about?
Before the season began, I expected Kirke to spend more time at prop, although he has played a little there. That gives us our five props.
Our second rows are then Ali, JJB, Ablett plus Allan and Worrall pm their way up.

tvoc wrote:

Gibson offers very little as was already fairly evident before his injury, if his current contract is extended beyond 2009 at Leeds I'd be amazed. Watkins has potential but is 18 months away from being a reliable option at centre week in week out. In the meantime he plays against the lesser lights or when injuries dictate to gain his experience. He's under contract until 2012 so there should be no fear of losing him. Smith was this year's designated right centre but with first Webb's recovery and now his own injury we haven't had a chance to evaluate that gamble just yet. Only time will tell whether we ever get to see if the gamble paid off.

So with Smith as first choice, you'd have to think that really Gibson and Watkins are the kind of level of ability and potential you would expect there, particularly considering we also have Ablett experienced in the position.

: Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:44 pm  

Richie wrote:

Aren't we OK for that though? Just about?
Before the season began, I expected Kirke to spend more time at prop, although he has played a little there. That gives us our five props.
Our second rows are then Ali, JJB, Ablett plus Allan and Worrall pm their way up.

Yeah for me almost there, Leeds just needed a signing of someone like, ooh I don't know so I'll just pick a name out of thin air here 'Greg Eastwood' and they'd have been sorted. The problem is (and it is a problem) that didn't materialise. The question is what should the reigning Champions do about that? Go to Allan and Worrall? Well not really not if they were serious about mounting a challenge across all comps this season. Is Allan really a second row by trade anyway and in Worrall we have 'Ablett light' and in Ablett we have 'Ellis light'.

Richie wrote:

So with Smith as first choice, you'd have to think that really Gibson and Watkins are the kind of level of ability and potential you would expect there, particularly considering we also have Ablett experienced in the position.

Centre wasn't so much of an issue for me once Webb got back to fitness with Senior and Smith designated first choices although I had misgivings pre season that Hall was the real deal on the right and I couldn't see the logic or possibility of disturbing our excellent go to pairing of Senior and Donald on the left. Pre-season for me Smith was the right wing choice not Hall.