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Re: Props ( no go forward ) : Sun May 26, 2013 3:05 pm  
St. Rughead wrote:
I'd like to see the stats before I comment on our go forward. Higham got them on the front foot, something that Howarth's not gonna do. Thompson and Walmsley seemed to make good yards, as they always do though.


Seeing the stats over the 80 mins might paper over the point I'm making. To many times this year ( and last) we have been physically dominated early in the game. The game can be lost with a poor 20 mins as Wigan show us every year, their pack blows us away early on and we playing catch up.

Its the first 20 that we don't make any go forward. We not to bad when we get going but we can't make 20 meters from our try line and that's because the pack is to soft, to old, to slow and not big enough.

I'd like to see the stats of the opening 20 mins for the last two games.
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Re: Props ( no go forward ) : Sun May 26, 2013 3:25 pm  
St. Rughead wrote:
I'd like to see the stats before I comment on our go forward. Higham got them on the front foot, something that Howarth's not gonna do. Thompson and Walmsley seemed to make good yards, as they always do though.


Higham completely turned the game when he was on the pitch,
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Re: Props ( no go forward ) : Sun May 26, 2013 3:49 pm  
Whilst certainly not disagreeing with the point that we need better props, I think the issue is a bit deeper than just that. We don't seem to deploy dummy runners and variation on our passing anywhere near as much as other, more successful teams do. This has been an issue for the last 3/4 seasons. It's just a case of the 1st receiver passing to whichever big bloke runs in to take the carry. It's predictable and easy to defend against. There's no guile to cast doubt into the minds of the defence.

Warrington have players like Briers, Ratchford, Myler, Monaghan, Hodgson who, although they do it different ways, each can make a defence hold back, wondering what they're going to do.

wi*an do it a bit differently, more structured. But very effectively - they deploy quick and often short passing from the first carrier to a second, and even repeat that. Defences get sucked into tackling the first carrier, which creates space outside/inside them for the next receiver to exploit. Thinking about it, this looks much like Jammer used to do - attracting 2/3 defenders to him then popping the ball up just before the moment of impact.

We've had successive coaches who've orchestrated our gameplay on far too simple a basis. Potter was woeful in offence, with a safety-first approach. Simmons was admittedly hamstrung by a team in the midst of transition and at least seemed more attack-minded. Rush was too inexperienced and just fell back into 'keep it simple' tried & tested tactics. Dunno what Brown is doing on the training pitch to remedy the mindset which has built up over several seasons, but it's not seeming to make much improvement and we're as one-dimensional as ever. In his defence, he's having to work with extremely limited resources in terms of creative players and effective props.

So, in summary, there are three areas we need to address:

1) Props - get rid of Perry & Laffranchi and sign a genuinely top class prop to complement Walmsley & LMS (Clough & Thompson to back-up). If TP goes, sign another similar-type prop also. That frees up one big salary.

2) Half-backs. Walsh will go a long way toward sorting this, but we need to resolve the No6 issue. If Walsh is an organising ballplayer, the choice is whether to have another pivot to share the load, or a running stand off. If Wilkin plays 13, he can be a second pivot. Sort of.

3) Gameplay. We need to mix it up much more than we do. As I've said, we lack deployment of dummy runners and variability of passing. But that's not the only problem that causes us to be predictable. We've used Manu well in the left channel only fleetingly, too often using him through the middle. And who do we have doing a similar job on the right? We all remember when the rot started to set in at Saints, when we only had one strike centre to we predictably always went that way when we spread the ball, so opposing teams knew to stack that side's defence. We need balance to give us the sort of unpredictability that served us so well in the not so distant past.
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Re: Props ( no go forward ) : Sun May 26, 2013 5:13 pm  
Th'ump wrote:
Whilst certainly not disagreeing with the point that we need better props, I think the issue is a bit deeper than just that. We don't seem to deploy dummy runners and variation on our passing anywhere near as much as other, more successful teams do. This has been an issue for the last 3/4 seasons. It's just a case of the 1st receiver passing to whichever big bloke runs in to take the carry. It's predictable and easy to defend against. There's no guile to cast doubt into the minds of the defence.

Warrington have players like Briers, Ratchford, Myler, Monaghan, Hodgson who, although they do it different ways, each can make a defence hold back, wondering what they're going to do.

wi*an do it a bit differently, more structured. But very effectively - they deploy quick and often short passing from the first carrier to a second, and even repeat that. Defences get sucked into tackling the first carrier, which creates space outside/inside them for the next receiver to exploit. Thinking about it, this looks much like Jammer used to do - attracting 2/3 defenders to him then popping the ball up just before the moment of impact.

We've had successive coaches who've orchestrated our gameplay on far too simple a basis. Potter was woeful in offence, with a safety-first approach. Simmons was admittedly hamstrung by a team in the midst of transition and at least seemed more attack-minded. Rush was too inexperienced and just fell back into 'keep it simple' tried & tested tactics. Dunno what Brown is doing on the training pitch to remedy the mindset which has built up over several seasons, but it's not seeming to make much improvement and we're as one-dimensional as ever. In his defence, he's having to work with extremely limited resources in terms of creative players and effective props.

So, in summary, there are three areas we need to address:

1) Props - get rid of Perry & Laffranchi and sign a genuinely top class prop to complement Walmsley & LMS (Clough & Thompson to back-up). If TP goes, sign another similar-type prop also. That frees up one big salary.

2) Half-backs. Walsh will go a long way toward sorting this, but we need to resolve the No6 issue. If Walsh is an organising ballplayer, the choice is whether to have another pivot to share the load, or a running stand off. If Wilkin plays 13, he can be a second pivot. Sort of.

3) Gameplay. We need to mix it up much more than we do. As I've said, we lack deployment of dummy runners and variability of passing. But that's not the only problem that causes us to be predictable. We've used Manu well in the left channel only fleetingly, too often using him through the middle. And who do we have doing a similar job on the right? We all remember when the rot started to set in at Saints, when we only had one strike centre to we predictably always went that way when we spread the ball, so opposing teams knew to stack that side's defence. We need balance to give us the sort of unpredictability that served us so well in the not so distant past.


I agree with most of this but when we stuck on our line, we need big hard running props to get us better field position for the kick.

Walsh is a ball playing organiser but he's no runner, its very rare he takes the line on. If wilkin goes back to playing loose, he could play the second pivot with Walsh. From the current rubbish we have in the squad, if play lance at stand off with Walsh as his 7. He's not a stand off but he's better than anything else we've got there.
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Re: Props ( no go forward ) : Sun May 26, 2013 5:15 pm  
Jordan Hand was superb again for haven today best forward by a mile on the pitch today greenwood wasn,t bad either he got the official man of the match and can we have swift every week the kids a flyer
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Re: Props ( no go forward ) : Sun May 26, 2013 5:22 pm  
barrajacks wrote:
Jordan Hand was superb again for haven today best forward by a mile on the pitch today greenwood wasn,t bad either he got the official man of the match and can we have swift every week the kids a flyer


Where was swifty playing ?
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Re: Props ( no go forward ) : Sun May 26, 2013 5:35 pm  
St pete wrote:
Where was swifty playing ?
Full back mate was rapid in free play scored our first try had a hand in the second aswell
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Re: Props ( no go forward ) : Sun May 26, 2013 5:38 pm  
barrajacks wrote:
Full back mate was rapid in free play scored our first try had a hand in the second aswell


He's a quick lad that's for sure. He also had good footwork
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Re: Props ( no go forward ) : Sun May 26, 2013 5:57 pm  
St pete wrote:
He's a quick lad that's for sure. He also had good footwork


Hopefully keep him next week seem to be getting class players week in week out now on DR long may it continue
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Re: Props ( no go forward ) : Sun May 26, 2013 6:01 pm  
barrajacks wrote:
Hopefully keep him next week seem to be getting class players week in week out now on DR long may it continue


How are you guys doing in the league ?
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