Re: 6050 : Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:30 pm  

The Lambeth Quin wrote:

Show me a club that doesn't factor in certain "away" attendances in their financial planning? And why should any away sides support make a "financial contribution" to any SL club. It's for the home side to get the crowds through the gate not for the away side to provide a "financial contribution.

Being isolated down London, I don't think Quins understand the sociality of Rugby League. League is very much a community sport and not a commodity support as in Union. So the importance of away support is crucial and often forgotton by the some of the heads of the RFL.

Take the saints 2 losses recently against Warrington and the Harlequins, both matches similar pattern and outcome. In the Warrington game there were around 3000 wire fans gloating and putting one over the saints and deserverdely so, the saints fans took the defeat but want revenge in the next match - this is rugby league in community.
Harlequins have a great win over saints at the weekend, cheered on by 12 quin fans, saints fans can't respond in the same way and is a negative for rugby league.

Every superleague clubs attendance bottoms out when Harlequins come to town, so I don't want Quins fans having an opinion on other clubs attendances when there away support is only in small multiples of 10 to 20 fans, and there home attendances are less than some championship clubs.

This is a RFL problem in playing the expansion card, when in reality it is a concept of trying to survive in total isolation, London would have been better having 2 or 3 championship clubs to provide a stimulus for derby matches and a rugby league community resulting in the birth of a superleague club, something the other london clubs could aspire to.
Instead all we have is a London Club isolated for the last 25 years and no doubt the RFL will allow for the next 25 years.

Re: 6050 : Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:11 pm  

Judder Man wrote:

Being isolated down London, I don't think Quins understand the sociality of Rugby League. League is very much a community sport and not a commodity support as in Union. So the importance of away support is crucial and often forgotton by the some of the heads of the RFL.

Is the so called "sociality" of watching sport so unique to RL? Absolutely not. Try asking the fans of lower league football teams about the sociality of their sport.

Judder Man wrote:

Take the saints 2 losses recently against Warrington and the Harlequins, both matches similar pattern and outcome. In the Warrington game there were around 3000 wire fans gloating and putting one over the saints and deserverdely so, the saints fans took the defeat but want revenge in the next match - this is rugby league in community.
Harlequins have a great win over saints at the weekend, cheered on by 12 quin fans, saints fans can't respond in the same way and is a negative for rugby league.

Saints 6000 fans can't outsing a dozen or so interlopers? Not our problem. So Saints fans don't want to win when they come to the Stoop in September? What utter tosh. Surely everybody wants to win every game no matter where the opponents are based or what crowds they get?

Judder Man wrote:

.....so I don't want Quins fans having an opinion ...............

Along with the rest of "The Northern Union". But we do and you'll have to suck it up along with the defeats to date.

Judder Man wrote:

This is a RFL problem in playing the expansion card, when in reality it is a concept of trying to survive in total isolation, London would have been better having 2 or 3 championship clubs to provide a stimulus for derby matches and a rugby league community resulting in the birth of a superleague club, something the other london clubs could aspire to.
Instead all we have is a London Club isolated for the last 25 years and no doubt the RFL will allow for the next 25 years.

But we can't undo what's been done and we have to deal with the here and now. The long forgotten fact of expansion of the professional game down south was it was not at the behest of the RFL, but it came from Fulham FC. After the RFL's success at expansion of the game at the community level primarily through summer based The Rugby League Conference (RLC), much to the annoyance of some district league officers and northern based community game RL pundits, the RFL now plan to expand the semi professional level of the game by inviting some of the ambitious "southern based" RLC sides such as St Albans, Nottingham and Coventry to join a revamped semi professional game from 2012. This gives a pathway to prospective players outside the heartlands to both levels of the professional ranks and from that perhaps more "southern based" SL candidates in time. Yes it is perhaps a bit of a backward way of doing it but the new regime had to deal with the mess bequethed them by the ancien regime of Maurice Lindsay and Co, so called "proper RL" people.

As The RFL's Ralph Rimmer stated recently staying a geographical based sport would be death by a 1000 cuts. And I am sure there are some RL fans who would be more than happy to have it that way.

Keep the faith.

Re: 6050 : Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:52 pm  

Judder Man wrote:

Every superleague clubs attendance bottoms out when Harlequins come to town

That's not true though is it?

For example last time Widnes were in Super League Warrington got more for the game against Harlequins than they did for the game against Widnes.

Its up to the home club to market the game to get more fans through the gates. Look at Wigan's attendance last season against Harlequins: 18,605. Wigan's third highest of the season (Harlequins was also Warrington's third highest attendance for the season).

Lots of hand-wringing going on by Saints fans blaming everything on playing at Widnes. To me the Saints club itself has compounded the situation was their lassiez-faire attitude. Are there any offers for Widnes fans to entice them to attend?

Re: 6050 : Sun Mar 13, 2011 3:09 pm  

martinbuckley wrote:

Widnes home games are:

£12 (£6), £15 (£8), £20 (£12) for pre-match purchase

£15 (£10), £20 (£12), £25 (£16) for purchase on the day.

I assume that Halton Council charge the same to St Helens as they do to Widnes - after all, the game is still the same length, yet St Helens are charging

Why do you assume that Halton Council will be charging a temporary Superleague club the same rate as their permanent Championship tenants? On what basis do you form your assumption?

To me, it seems the St helens board are being greedy in asking their fans to travel every week and then charge them more for the priviledge. They have no ground maintenance costs this year (only rent), so every penny above the rent can either go in salary or in the coffers for next year.

You don't know how much that rent is, though, do you? And Saints still have to provide their own stewards (along with pay for the ones supplied by Widnes) plus policing plus wages for those who serve behind the bar and clean up after us, maintain the pitch, etc. That's aside from their regular overheads, like Saints staff, the shop and the office at Alexandra Park, the training facility, etc. They may also be subsidising the Arriva and Hattons bus services they have arranged. I don't know the details of those arrangements but we have paid £40 for the full season (including any CC and play off games), which is lower than the cost would be if we travelled on the regular bus service. Also, Saints will be well aware that the fans don't like to travel further than their local pub to watch the team play so they would be fools to base their pricing upon more than about one thousand walk ups on top of the season ticket holders.

I don't think Saints are being greedy. I think they are being utterly realistic. However, I do agree that the turnout is an indictment on the Saints fanbase but the turnout doesn't surprise me having discussed at some length with members of that very fanbase their attitudes towards the temporary move to Widnes towards the end of last season.

Re: 6050 : Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:48 pm  

The Lambeth Quin wrote:

We are, well some of us at least, are living in the 21st century. That means facilities that meet the aspiration of the 21st century. As I said before your squatters because your club focused on the holy grail of superleague success, without to much success it must be said, whilst ignoring the need for modern stadia because "We're Saint Helens, don't you know".
.

1) You need to look up the dictionary definition of the word squatter.

2) We are not at the Halton stadium this season because the club focused on the holy grail of Superleague success, at least not in the way that you mean, we are there largely because of complications in the application and construction processes involved in getting into the new stadium. Unfortunately with such large construction project delays are inevitable, Saints were largely proactive in finding an alternative venue to play at under the circumstances.

The undeniable fact is that the Halton involves more travel to get to than Knowsley Road and therefore makes it even more difficult for some fans to attend every friday night. Through consultation with the community the club has known that this has been an ongoing issue for large numbers of fans wanting to attend games for years.

3) We were far from ignoring the need for modern stadia, we've been trying for many many years to get out of Knowsley Road and into a new ground (our OWN, dedicated RUGBY stadium which suits our own needs and offers facilities for the community as well being a more welcoming place for home and away fans to visit) with several past attempts blighted by lack of funds, poor board level management & planning amongst a few of the reasons we failed. The current board deserves praise for finally getting the move underway despite the additional difficulties that arose with the economy and in the face of opposition from some other parties. Arrogance has played no part in us not moving until now.

Re: 6050 : Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:48 am  

People are reading a little too much into this attendance, not that there isn't anything that can be done about it. It just feels like a lot with agendas and vendettas are getting their say in with no real justification.

First off, the pricing is awful. It's extortionate. In the current climate people cannot afford to throw money away every week.

Secondly, it's a little further than most fans are used to and they will take time to adjust. Like Max says, there is usually a large amount who walk to games for nearly all clubs, this will be effectively zero to saints fans this year. None drivers will be put out, and drivers will have to spend more to get to games. It's going to put off many people no matter what the club.

The economic climate will mean that many fans will have to pick and choose which games to attend and with the greatest respect to quins, they're not the draw a local rival is.

Thirdly, Saints have started very poorly by their standards, there isnt the buzz about the team that there usually is. Not a great excuse to be honest, but always going to be a factor.

Bottom line is, everyone knew this season attendances would suffer for one reason or another. It doesn't prove saints fans are fickle or lightweight, it just reflects on the choices the club have made and the current climate. I suspect when the new ground is finally built you will see the crowds back in even greater numbers than before, although to be fair, the costing needs to be looked at because we're all suffering at the moment and asking for so much money when they're already making an effort to get there is unfair. For the good of the sport let's hope it's sorted soon.

Re: 6050 : Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:13 am  

Chris Dalton wrote:

People are reading a little too much into this attendance, not that there isn't anything that can be done about it. It just feels like a lot with agendas and vendettas are getting their say in with no real justification.

First off, the pricing is awful. It's extortionate. In the current climate people cannot afford to throw money away every week.

Secondly, it's a little further than most fans are used to and they will take time to adjust. Like Max says, there is usually a large amount who walk to games for nearly all clubs, this will be effectively zero to saints fans this year. None drivers will be put out, and drivers will have to spend more to get to games. It's going to put off many people no matter what the club.

The economic climate will mean that many fans will have to pick and choose which games to attend and with the greatest respect to quins, they're not the draw a local rival is.

Thirdly, Saints have started very poorly by their standards, there isnt the buzz about the team that there usually is. Not a great excuse to be honest, but always going to be a factor.

Bottom line is, everyone knew this season attendances would suffer for one reason or another. It doesn't prove saints fans are fickle or lightweight, it just reflects on the choices the club have made and the current climate. I suspect when the new ground is finally built you will see the crowds back in even greater numbers than before, although to be fair, the costing needs to be looked at because we're all suffering at the moment and asking for so much money when they're already making an effort to get there is unfair. For the good of the sport let's hope it's sorted soon.

What he said,with knobs on.
Would only be worried if it carries on into next season (it wont,my guess is that saints will post their highest ever average next season) my guess would be 12k+,playing saturday/sunday may have helped with the lack of walk ups/far less kids in attendance,(fwiw i am informed that saints have budgeted for an average of around 7k for this season).alll in all no great drama.....except on the field,early day yet though

Re: 6050 : Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:44 pm  

The pricing is a little worrying. If they are charging that for Widnes, how much will it be at a brand new stadium??

Re: 6050 : Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:19 am  

Chris Dalton wrote:

People are reading a little too much into this attendance, not that there isn't anything that can be done about it. It just feels like a lot with agendas and vendettas are getting their say in.

This is true but hey, lets be fair Saints have had it very good for over ten years and there is a lot of light hearted paybacks beings let loose.

Re: 6050 : Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:56 am  

Dave Lister wrote:

Eh? That makes no sense. Spec isn't a word

Spectating position ?

ita a well known colloqiualism