Re: Mose Masoe : Wed Jul 01, 2015 3:38 pm  

Judder Man wrote:

This is what I mean, you seem to be blinkered on this 8 mins thing. Mose can,t be placed into any "pigeon hole" category or statistic its more complex than that. It seems as though you have difficulty in understanding that, maybe most of us will just accept the imbalanced criticism or personal opinion.

I'm not quoting stats on his time on the field, I'm stating facts. Some games he can't do 10 mins without him looking to the Bench with his hands on his hips or on his knees.

The grand final he lasted 8 mins which is prob a grand final record. Yet some weeks he can do 20 mins no sweat. I think that's just down to atititude and some weeks he just doesn't want to be out there.

Re: Mose Masoe : Wed Jul 01, 2015 4:24 pm  

St pete wrote:

I'm not quoting stats on his time on the field, I'm stating facts. Some games he can't do 10 mins without him looking to the Bench with his hands on his hips or on his knees.

The grand final he lasted 8 mins which is prob a grand final record. Yet some weeks he can do 20 mins no sweat. I think that's just down to atititude and some weeks he just doesn't want to be out there.

I'd say it's more to do with how he uses his energy in the minutes he's on, how much defence he gets through & how our half backs or make shift ones at times use him running onto the ball or just make him lose energy taking flat ball etc. Think it's harsh to say attitude really

Re: Mose Masoe : Wed Jul 01, 2015 4:43 pm  

Nickles Forearm wrote:

I'd say it's more to do with how he uses his energy in the minutes he's on, how much defence he gets through & how our half backs or make shift ones at times use him running onto the ball or just make him lose energy taking flat ball etc. Think it's harsh to say attitude really

Harsh but true.

Re: Mose Masoe : Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:05 pm  

Twentyman wrote:

Human hearts along with all our other organs grow in proportion to our body size. Obviously, if you were to pile a ridiculous amount of weight on in fat or muscle, then that would pile a lot of pressure on the heart. However, Mose is a big big lad, not because of incessant weight training or whatever, because of his genetics. So don't be worrying about Mose's heart if he has to do a bit of graft.

I'm not worried about Mose's heart. What I'm saying is it is totally unrealistic to expect someone weighing in at 20st+ to have the same workrate as someone who is possibly FIVE STONES lighter. This is why guys occupying the offensive line in American football can barely last four successive plays without gulping down oxygen. It's not that these men are unfit. The NFL has some of the finest fitness coaches in the world and certainly the best facilities. With all the best conditioning, diet, lifestyle etc. in the world, it's almost impossible to squeeze the same workrate out of a 20st lineman as you can from, say, a 16st linebacker (unless he's some kind of genetic freak).

I absolutely agree that Mose's condition at game #1 was unacceptable. Like other "big" South Sea Island forwards (whose love of good food is legendary) returning from an injury which prevents any kind of fitness work until fully healed I do have a certain degree of sympathy. But he let himself down and he couldn't complain when the fans got on his back.

From that point he didn't miss a single game and he worked damned hard to get the weight off. In no language is that the behaviour of a "lazy" player. Lazy players make a half-hearted stab at tackling the weight problems and yet never manage to deal with them in full.

At the end of last season Mose was lean and fit. Just as he is now. If he's sometimes down on his haunches in games then maybe it's because he's lugging close to SEVENTY POUNDS more bodyweight than someone like Amor.

Seriously, if I placed a SEVENTY POUND pack on Kyle Amor's back do you think he'd just carry on as if it were a bag full of feathers?

This isn't rocket science guys. It's ABC stuff. I find it curious that whenever Mose starts breathing heavy or doesn't carry the ball on a set of six the FIRST RESPONSE always is "he's lazy" when there are other explanations which are not just more plausible but far more fair on a guy who has never missed a game and never been dropped.

Oh, and when it comes to protecting his teammates from the opposition's roughest, dirtiest players he's ALWAYS FIRST MAN TO STAND UP.

Re: Mose Masoe : Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:06 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

I'm not worried about Mose's heart. What I'm saying is it is totally unrealistic to expect someone weighing in at 20st+ to have the same workrate as someone who is possibly FIVE STONES lighter. This is why guys occupying the offensive line in American football can barely last four successive plays without gulping down oxygen. It's not that these men are unfit. The NFL has some of the finest fitness coaches in the world and certainly the best facilities. With all the best conditioning, diet, lifestyle etc. in the world, it's almost impossible to squeeze the same workrate out of a 20st lineman as you can from, say, a 16st linebacker (unless he's some kind of genetic freak).

I absolutely agree that Mose's condition at game #1 was unacceptable. Like other "big" South Sea Island forwards (whose love of good food is legendary) returning from an injury which prevents any kind of fitness work until fully healed I do have a certain degree of sympathy. But he let himself down and he couldn't complain when the fans got on his back.

From that point he didn't miss a single game and he worked damned hard to get the weight off. In no language is that the behaviour of a "lazy" player. Lazy players make a half-hearted stab at tackling the weight problems and yet never manage to deal with them in full.

At the end of last season Mose was lean and fit. Just as he is now. If he's sometimes down on his haunches in games then maybe it's because he's lugging close to SEVENTY POUNDS more bodyweight than someone like Amor.

Seriously, if I placed a SEVENTY POUND pack on Kyle Amor's back do you think he'd just carry on as if it were a bag full of feathers?

This isn't rocket science guys. It's ABC stuff. I find it curious that whenever Mose starts breathing heavy or doesn't carry the ball on a set of six the FIRST RESPONSE always is "he's lazy" when there are other explanations which are not just more plausible but far more fair on a guy who has never missed a game and never been dropped.

Oh, and when it comes to protecting his teammates from the opposition's roughest, dirtiest players he's ALWAYS FIRST MAN TO STAND UP.

I've typed out several responses and deleted them, because I figured, what is the point with getting into this discussion? You have an opinion, so do I, and they're different. You won't change my mind.

Re: Mose Masoe : Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:49 pm  

Twentyman wrote:

I've typed out several responses and deleted them, because I figured, what is the point with getting into this discussion? You have an opinion, so do I, and they're different. You won't change my mind.

It's statements such as the above which make me wonder how genuine you're being and whether your antipathy toward Mose is based on facts, observable evidence and reason or plain old prejudice.

I find it damning that nothing I can say will "change your mind" - even though your initial claim that Mose's figures on hit ups, tackles, yards etc. would be substantially below Walmsley's and Amor's has been proven wide of the mark. (It begs the question why are you discussing Mose's attitude as though it's a matter which is up for debate when your mind is already fixed??)

Opinions are not inherently equal. Throughout I have supported mine with statistics, indisputable evidence (he's never been dropped, he's never missed a game, he's always the first man in protecting a team mate etc.) and reason (Mose's carrying seventy odd pounds more than Amor etc. etc.)

So far the best you've managed to come up with is circular logic ("Mose's lazy" - BUT BASED ON WHAT?) and your own observations.

Let's flip this argument around and see how genuine you are.

"PRECISELY WHAT would it take for you to think Mose isn't lazy?"

If, as you claim, you are being fair to Mose then you won't have any objection to laying down REASONABLE (Mose's inability to match Kyle Amor's workrate given his vastly greater mass is NOT REASONABLE), and more importantly, TESTABLE criteria.

On the flipside, I'm quite happy to look at my position again if you can point to public statements made by the coach in which he has repeatedly identified Mose as a "lazy" player.

Re: Mose Masoe : Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:43 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

It's statements such as the above which make me wonder how genuine you're being and whether your antipathy toward Mose is based on facts, observable evidence and reason or plain old prejudice.

I find it damning that nothing I can say will "change your mind" - even though your initial claim that Mose's figures on hit ups, tackles, yards etc. would be substantially below Walmsley's and Amor's has been proven wide of the mark. (It begs the question why are you discussing Mose's attitude as though it's a matter which is up for debate when your mind is already fixed??)

Opinions are not inherently equal. Throughout I have supported mine with statistics, indisputable evidence (he's never been dropped, he's never missed a game, he's always the first man in protecting a team mate etc.) and reason (Mose's carrying seventy odd pounds more than Amor etc. etc.)

So far the best you've managed to come up with is circular logic ("Mose's lazy" - BUT BASED ON WHAT?) and your own observations.

Let's flip this argument around and see how genuine you are.

"PRECISELY WHAT would it take for you to think Mose isn't lazy?"

If, as you claim, you are being fair to Mose then you won't have any objection to laying down REASONABLE (Mose's inability to match Kyle Amor's workrate given his vastly greater mass is NOT REASONABLE), and more importantly, TESTABLE criteria.

On the flipside, I'm quite happy to look at my position again if you can point to public statements made by the coach in which he has repeatedly identified Mose as a "lazy" player.

Why the really long post? For the third time now, I've said let's agree to disagree but you're insistent on carrying it on.

I notice you like to make very long posts that branch off in lots of different directions and just reading them are exhausting, to the point it would take a fair bit of time dissecting them, just to reply to all your points.

My point is, it's rarely a reasonable debate with you. No doubt in the next post or two, you'll question my intelligence or call me an idiot.

Re: Mose Masoe : Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:14 pm  

Twentyman wrote:

Why the really long post? For the third time now, I've said let's agree to disagree but you're insistent on carrying it on.

I notice you like to make very long posts that branch off in lots of different directions and just reading them are exhausting, to the point it would take a fair bit of time dissecting them, just to reply to all your points.

My point is, it's rarely a reasonable debate with you. No doubt in the next post or two, you'll question my intelligence or call me an idiot.

So reading a long post exhausts you, yet when Mose puts his hands on his hips after three or four drives and a handful of tackles he is being lazy.

Re: Mose Masoe : Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:15 pm  

redex113 wrote:

So reading a long post exhausts you, yet when Mose puts his hands on his hips after three or four drives and a handful of tackles he is being lazy.

Hahaha. Fair play mate

Re: Mose Masoe : Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:01 pm  

Twentyman wrote:

Why the really long post? For the third time now, I've said let's agree to disagree but you're insistent on carrying it on.

I notice you like to make very long posts that branch off in lots of different directions and just reading them are exhausting, to the point it would take a fair bit of time dissecting them, just to reply to all your points.

My point is, it's rarely a reasonable debate with you. No doubt in the next post or two, you'll question my intelligence or call me an idiot.

For God's sake man, you're not reading War & Peace.

I blame Facebook (which encouraged the idea that complex arguments and ideas can be conveyed in a paragraph). Then came Twitter (down to 255 characters).

If you think I'm not being reasonable then explain why. I DO YOU that courtesy. As for judging your intelligence - I can only make a call on what you write. Or don't.

I'm not in the business of flattery. But I'm not so much of an ass that I won't give credit when it is due, either.