Re: Sack the Coach : Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:13 am  

I'm not for sacking the coach and I would never judge a team this early.
That being said, that first half we were no were near a standard that anyone could say was average.
Ball's being thrown to no one, dropped balls people bunched together in attack like school boys all following the ball.

It was woeful.

For me Swift stood out as one of our better players. Thought dawson did ok, but can't see why we would not just play Turner there and fages as hooker???

Turner has a huge boot on him and maybe we need to use that more, but he can do 2 or 3 kicks from the centre position.
I get why he is being played at stand off as he is a strong runner, but in the middle of the park those strong runs are easily nulified. I'm not sure burns is the answer either at stand off as he brought less to that role last year than Turner.

I think fages (a half back) is the only player who we have not tried at halfback.

Wilkin can do a job, but admits he is not a natural there
Burns seems to lose his impact
Turner offers running and a big boot but is ineffective and it also means we have to patch up the centres with less attacking threats.

When Roby came on the organisation of the teams attack smartened up almost immediately. Losing Kelly stopped Hull KR scoring, but we were not looking like we were going to threaten much either. Roby got us rolling and into positions to be effective.

It's scary how much we are dependant on him and how little capability there seems to be without him.
We may have talkers across the park, but few who can on their own take action that will actually change a game.
I've no idea what we practice, but at the moment it's not good enough.

As always I'll give it the first 10 games, before I put any nails in the coffin or any pedestals out to place people on.

Re: Sack the Coach : Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:16 am  

barham red wrote:

Sorry I must have missed that last year's injuries were relevant to last night's match.

We won the league and prem double in '86 so should have stuffed you last night...

The point is - no one cared when we had injuries so I'm not going to lose any sleep over yours.

If it were impossible for teams to win with several injuries this debate might lead somewhere. But it isn't. Likewise, teams with no injuries often turn in terrible displays.

It's a factor - sure. But how much of a factor neither you nor I nor anyone else has the faintest idea.

Re: Sack the Coach : Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:23 am  

bewareshadows wrote:

I'm not for sacking the coach and I would never judge a team this early.
That being said, that first half we were no were near a standard that anyone could say was average.
Ball's being thrown to no one, dropped balls people bunched together in attack like school boys all following the ball.

It was woeful.

For me Swift stood out as one of our better players. Thought dawson did ok, but can't see why we would not just play Turner there and fages as hooker???

Turner has a huge boot on him and maybe we need to use that more, but he can do 2 or 3 kicks from the centre position.
I get why he is being played at stand off as he is a strong runner, but in the middle of the park those strong runs are easily nulified. I'm not sure burns is the answer either at stand off as he brought less to that role last year than Turner.

I think fages (a half back) is the only player who we have not tried at halfback.

Wilkin can do a job, but admits he is not a natural there
Burns seems to lose his impact
Turner offers running and a big boot but is ineffective and it also means we have to patch up the centres with less attacking threats.

When Roby came on the organisation of the teams attack smartened up almost immediately. Losing Kelly stopped Hull KR scoring, but we were not looking like we were going to threaten much either. Roby got us rolling and into positions to be effective.

It's scary how much we are dependant on him and how little capability there seems to be without him.
We may have talkers across the park, but few who can on their own take action that will actually change a game.
I've no idea what we practice, but at the moment it's not good enough.

As always I'll give it the first 10 games, before I put any nails in the coffin or any pedestals out to place people on.

Roby is very important to our side. But it wasn't just Roby who turned things around for us.

Luke Walsh looked twice the player the moment he started getting quick and accurate service out of the dummy half.

We have to look at this problem less as a function of individual strengths or weaknesses and more in terms of the team and the whole being greater than the sum of its parts.

It's not that Walsh upped his game necessarily. It's just that he's a far less effective player when he has little of note to work with in other key positions.

Re: Sack the Coach : Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:46 am  

Mugwump wrote:

Roby is very important to our side. But it wasn't just Roby who turned things around for us.

Luke Walsh looked twice the player the moment he started getting quick and accurate service out of the dummy half.

Mugwump wrote:

We have to look at this problem less as a function of individual strengths or weaknesses and more in terms of the team and the whole being greater than the sum of its parts.

It's not that Walsh upped his game necessarily. It's just that he's a far less effective player when he has little of note to work with in other key positions.

Which in itself points to the way the team is organised and coached.

Re: Sack the Coach : Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:00 pm  

Win is a win I suppose but when you look at the context it's a massive worry.

Defence is just a mess at the minute. Cunningham's middles are just not as good as he thinks. Hull KR cut ribbons through the middle time and time again in the first half. Let's just be glad that Kelly had to leave the pitch. I've lost count of how many tries we have conceded in the last three games through really poor defence.

Attack isn't great either. I've never seen a team move as slow before with as little penetration.

Real worry and with the way Castleford played last week we could be in for another drubbing

Re: Sack the Coach : Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:10 pm  

bewareshadows wrote:

:DOH:

Which in itself points to the way the team is organised and coached.

Coaching is important. But you can't coach Jordan Turner to reach a level of proficiency at stand-off which will bring the best out of Luke Walsh. Nor can you do similarly with Burns at hooker and Dawson as a strike centre.

Shannon McDonnell looked pretty rusty last night. But he instantly showed enough natural ability at running lines of support to make me think (provided he's clear of injury) we'll play significantly better. It goes without saying that Roby gives us plenty more options and should fate shine on the club and return Lomax at anything like his previous abilities we'll be a long way toward having genuine playmakers calling the shots in the backs rather than one man and a bunch of make-weights.

I really don't think people appreciate how much the club has been forced into making serious compromises losing Walsh, Lomax & McDonnell long term with Roby adding to the mess this season. We certainly shouldn't think of our standard of play with the likes of Turner at stand-off as representative of what we are capable of achieving with at least some of our key men dictating play on the field rather than sitting on the treatment table.

Re: Sack the Coach : Sat Feb 27, 2016 1:29 pm  

barham red wrote:

I honestly thought saints would be the team to beat this year but watching the last few weeks I can't see it. Leeds and Hudds have key people missing but you had enough on the pitch that should in all honesty be looking at beating our team last night by 40.

I don't know why you should think that all the so called top clubs have come back into the pack also form in the first month of the season has no reflection on the spoils at the end of the season. Roby wasn't fit enough to play 80 mins, if he had we might have started a bit better and put 40 points on your team, we will just take it as a dodgy win and not a quality win because both are still worth 2 points.

Re: Sack the Coach : Sat Feb 27, 2016 1:30 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

Luke Walsh looked twice the player the moment he started getting quick and accurate service out of the dummy half.

Quick ball is indeed important to Luke Walsh as it helps him stay even further away from the defensive line he is terrified of.

One of the softest players I've ever seen. And I don't buy the argument that 7s don't have to ever take the line on, because good ones do or everything is too predictable. How many times did Thurston take the ball into contact last weekend? I'd venture it was 10+

Re: Sack the Coach : Sat Feb 27, 2016 1:58 pm  

With their 17, and then losing Albert Kelly, we'd have done well to have lost last night.

I found the team bizzare. Bringing in Greenwood and putting Turner in the centres for the Roosters game, the best team we will play all year, to then change both the week later just seemed crazy. Turner is an okay runner, can boot the ball downfield but his passing with anything over 2 yards is embarrassing. Dawson had a good go but KC needs to swallow his pride and get Turner back at centre and Fages or Burns at 6.

With the ball in hand i thought we were okay. In the first half despite the scoreline we seemed almost ambitious with the ball at one point which made me uncomfortable as i wasnt used to it. Second half we steamrolled them in the forwards and Roby brought out the best in those around him. I have no problem playing the type of forward game we played in that second half as it was effective and well carried out, we even ran in pairs!

The defence throughout was a farce really. Wilkin missing 6 tackles, Peyroux 5 and Vea 5 or 6 (haven't got the stats up at the minute). Kelly looked like opening us up at will and we'd of struggled if he'd of stayed on.

I thought in terms of positives the back 3 were excellent. All made decent metres (166 from swift!) and all got at least a try or an assist (Makinson andd SMD with both). Walmsley and Amor brilliant as ever.

Defence needs to be miles better for next week but that's 2 points we haven't had for years. Hopefully the defence tightens up next week the attack keeps improving as i believe last night was slightly better.

Re: Sack the Coach : Sat Feb 27, 2016 2:42 pm  

FearTheVee wrote:

Quick ball is indeed important to Luke Walsh as it helps him stay even further away from the defensive line he is terrified of.

One of the softest players I've ever seen. And I don't buy the argument that 7s don't have to ever take the line on, because good ones do or everything is too predictable. How many times did Thurston take the ball into contact last weekend? I'd venture it was 10+

I don't think you are being fair to the guy. When he arrived and before he got injured Walsh had no problems with taking on the line. Since he's been unwilling to get caught in possession with the ball.

But that's perfectly understandable given the terrible injury he sustained. The human brain has a tendency to remember agonizing pain and encourages us to avoid it in the future. It's a survival instinct which is pre-programmed into if not all living species then certainly human beings.

At the back end of last season I was scathing of Walsh's defence. It really was terrible. Since then I think he's worked hard at his game and he's nowhere near the liability he was back then.

But it takes TIME to get over these things. Lots of it. Walsh might not be at 100% effectiveness but he's at least showing signs of going in the right direction. Cut the guy some slack.