Re: Salary Cap : Thu Dec 24, 2009 2:28 pm  

Rogues Gallery wrote:

I'm not suggesting we scrap it, but the initial idea of the cap was to prevent things like this happening.

Clubs have to be made to realise they cannot overspend by such great amounts year on year. Are they really only spending £1.6 million on wages?

Leeds turned over £10.6 million and still made a loss. If they spent £1.6 million on players salaries, where was £9 million spent?

Amongst other things, some of the the costs (not the same as 'spent') according to the accounts were:

Directors emols £290,248
Directors pensions £9,765
Other wages & Salaries (incl players) £4,486,967
Social Security Costs £404,071
Other staff pensions £59,317
Amortisation of transfer fees £33,823
Depreciation £502,667
Amortisation of ground improvement grants (32,561)
Dontation to LR foundation £50,000
P&M rentals £55,461
Paid to Leeds RUFC for unspecified services £200,000
Audit £14,000
auditors - tax services £5,650
auditors - other services £8,565
Legal fees £62,031
Interest paid on bank loans/overdrafts £4,452
Interest paid on loans from group £46,500
CT £458,959
DT £38,814

And, according to what they have said, some £500k on repairs (not capital) to the South Stand plus some refurb work to the Pavilion which also seems to have gone through the P&L.

But more than any other one thing it's wages and salaries - the club employs 100 people besides the players and matchday employees. Just because Wigan are a club without a ground, a soul or much else besides a matchday operation, doesn't mean the rest of the league is.

Re: Salary Cap : Thu Dec 24, 2009 3:42 pm  

MjM wrote:

Amongst other things, some of the the costs (not the same as 'spent') according to the accounts were:

Directors emols £290,248
Directors pensions £9,765
Other wages & Salaries (incl players) £4,486,967
Social Security Costs £404,071
Other staff pensions £59,317
Amortisation of transfer fees £33,823
Depreciation £502,667
Amortisation of ground improvement grants (32,561)
Dontation to LR foundation £50,000
P&M rentals £55,461
Paid to Leeds RUFC for unspecified services £200,000
Audit £14,000
auditors - tax services £5,650
auditors - other services £8,565
Legal fees £62,031
Interest paid on bank loans/overdrafts £4,452
Interest paid on loans from group £46,500
CT £458,959
DT £38,814

And, according to what they have said, some £500k on repairs (not capital) to the South Stand plus some refurb work to the Pavilion which also seems to have gone through the P&L.

But more than any other one thing it's wages and salaries - the club employs 100 people besides the players and matchday employees. Just because Wigan are a club without a ground, a soul or much else besides a matchday operation, doesn't mean the rest of the league is.

Now, wouldn't that one right there rankle a tad?

Re: Salary Cap : Thu Dec 24, 2009 4:06 pm  

Saddened! wrote:

Now, wouldn't that one right there rankle a tad?

:) It's only money! I'm pleased we are doing all we can to help out our up and coming associate club in their quest to become the dominant rugby force in Yorkshire.

Re: Salary Cap : Thu Dec 24, 2009 6:16 pm  

What transfer fees?
Depreciation on what?
What is CT and DT
Why a payment to Leeds RUFC?


100 employees doing what?
At an average of almost £29K per year.

Adding all your figures together including £1.6 million for the players wages then where has the other £4 million gone?

Re: Salary Cap : Thu Dec 24, 2009 6:32 pm  

MjM wrote:

:) It's only money! I'm pleased we are doing all we can to help out our up and coming associate club in their quest to become the dominant rugby force in Yorkshire.

Hmmm your helping them,sure Its not the other way round.

Re: Salary Cap : Thu Dec 24, 2009 6:58 pm  

Rogues Gallery wrote: What transfer fees? Leeds policy when they sign someone on a fee is to write the fee off over the length of that player's first contract. A reasonable policy - God knows who's in that figure in 2008. Last year of Gareth Ellis maybe. It's not a huge figure. Rogues Gallery wrote: Depreciation on what? Something Wigan wouldn't be familiar with - fixed assets. Don't have the accounts to hand, but the Carnegie Stand will be a good chunk of it. Rogues Gallery wrote: What is CT and DT Corporation Tax & Deferred Tax. Rogues Gallery wrote: Why a payment to Leeds RUFC? I'd really love to know. They pay Leeds more in rent etc than Leeds pay them - but then again Leeds own the bloody stadium, pay Hetherington & the rest and they provide no discernable service to Leeds I can find. But they do lose lots of money so perhaps just need the cash. Rogues Gallery wrote: 100 employees doing what? At an average of almost £29K per year. Running a stadium/conference centre/cafe bar/Rugby League club/investing ****loads into the community game. You can email them all and ask what they're up to if you like. http://www.therhinos.co.uk/club/staff/index.php It seems to be beyond you but turnover of £10m is not coming just from matchday activities. Leeds have corporate facilities for 1,200 people per game - more, they are proud to tell us, than Elland Road and probably more than half the rest of the league put together. So they are ahead to begin with but those facilities then get used midweek for conferences/weddings/special events etc - as the link says, "non-sporting business, including conferences, parties and seminars still account for more business than any other sector". Generating that income costs money and putting on the events which generate that income costs money. One way of running an RL club is having overheads consisting solely of players salaries, a couple of ticket office girls and paying the rent on a stadium you don't own. Great - but you won't get the turnover to levels sufficient to do much else on the expenditure side then.

Rogues Gallery wrote: What transfer fees? Leeds policy when they sign someone on a fee is to write the fee off over the length of that player's first contract. A reasonable policy - God knows who's in that figure in 2008. Last year of Gareth Ellis maybe. It's not a huge figure. Rogues Gallery wrote: Depreciation on what? Something Wigan wouldn't be familiar with - fixed assets. Don't have the accounts to hand, but the Carnegie Stand will be a good chunk of it. Rogues Gallery wrote: What is CT and DT Corporation Tax & Deferred Tax. Rogues Gallery wrote: Why a payment to Leeds RUFC? I'd really love to know. They pay Leeds more in rent etc than Leeds pay them - but then again Leeds own the bloody stadium, pay Hetherington & the rest and they provide no discernable service to Leeds I can find. But they do lose lots of money so perhaps just need the cash. Rogues Gallery wrote: 100 employees doing what? At an average of almost £29K per year. Running a stadium/conference centre/cafe bar/Rugby League club/investing ****loads into the community game. You can email them all and ask what they're up to if you like. http://www.therhinos.co.uk/club/staff/index.php It seems to be beyond you but turnover of £10m is not coming just from matchday activities. Leeds have corporate facilities for 1,200 people per game - more, they are proud to tell us, than Elland Road and probably more than half the rest of the league put together. So they are ahead to begin with but those facilities then get used midweek for conferences/weddings/special events etc - as the link says, "non-sporting business, including conferences, parties and seminars still account for more business than any other sector". Generating that income costs money and putting on the events which generate that income costs money. One way of running an RL club is having overheads consisting solely of players salaries, a couple of ticket office girls and paying the rent on a stadium you don't own. Great - but you won't get the turnover to levels sufficient to do much else on the expenditure side then.

Re: Salary Cap : Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:56 pm  

Rogues Gallery wrote: So how has the salary cap helped here. http://www.sporthull.co.uk/headlines/Hull-KR-Accounts-debts-163-3m/article-1638846-detail/article.html http://forums.rlfans.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=439393&start=135 The salary cap was brought in to protect clubs from doing this which I agreed with, not equalise the competition. How much worse would the situation have been if they'd have spent another £2 million on player salaries?

Rogues Gallery wrote: So how has the salary cap helped here. http://www.sporthull.co.uk/headlines/Hull-KR-Accounts-debts-163-3m/article-1638846-detail/article.html http://forums.rlfans.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=439393&start=135 The salary cap was brought in to protect clubs from doing this which I agreed with, not equalise the competition. How much worse would the situation have been if they'd have spent another £2 million on player salaries?

Re: Salary Cap : Fri Dec 25, 2009 2:46 pm  

MjM wrote: Leeds policy when they sign someone on a fee is to write the fee off over the length of that player's first contract. A reasonable policy - God knows who's in that figure in 2008. Last year of Gareth Ellis maybe. It's not a huge figure. Something Wigan wouldn't be familiar with - fixed assets. Don't have the accounts to hand, but the Carnegie Stand will be a good chunk of it. Corporation Tax & Deferred Tax. I'd really love to know. They pay Leeds more in rent etc than Leeds pay them - but then again Leeds own the bloody stadium, pay Hetherington & the rest and they provide no discernable service to Leeds I can find. But they do lose lots of money so perhaps just need the cash. Running a stadium/conference centre/cafe bar/Rugby League club/investing ****loads into the community game. You can email them all and ask what they're up to if you like. http://www.therhinos.co.uk/club/staff/index.php It seems to be beyond you but turnover of £10m is not coming just from matchday activities. Leeds have corporate facilities for 1,200 people per game - more, they are proud to tell us, than Elland Road and probably more than half the rest of the league put together. So they are ahead to begin with but those facilities then get used midweek for conferences/weddings/special events etc - as the link says, "non-sporting business, including conferences, parties and seminars still account for more business than any other sector". Generating that income costs money and putting on the events which generate that income costs money. One way of running an RL club is having overheads consisting solely of players salaries, a couple of ticket office girls and paying the rent on a stadium you don't own. Great - but you won't get the turnover to levels sufficient to do much else on the expenditure side then. You seem to be missing the point. We know where the income is from as you have pointed out, but the figures you produced on expenditure appears around £4 million short of the £10.6 million of Leeds turnover. So I'll ask again where do you think it has been spent?

MjM wrote: Leeds policy when they sign someone on a fee is to write the fee off over the length of that player's first contract. A reasonable policy - God knows who's in that figure in 2008. Last year of Gareth Ellis maybe. It's not a huge figure. Something Wigan wouldn't be familiar with - fixed assets. Don't have the accounts to hand, but the Carnegie Stand will be a good chunk of it. Corporation Tax & Deferred Tax. I'd really love to know. They pay Leeds more in rent etc than Leeds pay them - but then again Leeds own the bloody stadium, pay Hetherington & the rest and they provide no discernable service to Leeds I can find. But they do lose lots of money so perhaps just need the cash. Running a stadium/conference centre/cafe bar/Rugby League club/investing ****loads into the community game. You can email them all and ask what they're up to if you like. http://www.therhinos.co.uk/club/staff/index.php It seems to be beyond you but turnover of £10m is not coming just from matchday activities. Leeds have corporate facilities for 1,200 people per game - more, they are proud to tell us, than Elland Road and probably more than half the rest of the league put together. So they are ahead to begin with but those facilities then get used midweek for conferences/weddings/special events etc - as the link says, "non-sporting business, including conferences, parties and seminars still account for more business than any other sector". Generating that income costs money and putting on the events which generate that income costs money. One way of running an RL club is having overheads consisting solely of players salaries, a couple of ticket office girls and paying the rent on a stadium you don't own. Great - but you won't get the turnover to levels sufficient to do much else on the expenditure side then. You seem to be missing the point. We know where the income is from as you have pointed out, but the figures you produced on expenditure appears around £4 million short of the £10.6 million of Leeds turnover. So I'll ask again where do you think it has been spent?

Re: Salary Cap : Fri Dec 25, 2009 5:36 pm  

Rogues Gallery wrote:

You seem to be missing the point. We know where the income is from as you have pointed out, but the figures you produced on expenditure appears around £4 million short of the £10.6 million of Leeds turnover.

So I'll ask again where do you think it has been spent?

I'm assuming you don't have much involvement in running a company - high turnover is not just "free cash". You have to PAY money to support and generate that turnover.

Other than the ones I can extract due to various disclosures in the accounts I have no idea what Leeds' or any other club's detailed cost structure is like. But you'll have overheads such as advertising, repairs, rates, heat & light, travel & subsistence, security etc etc God knows how much cash just sticking on the floodlights for three hours or more every other Friday costs. And on the RL side, supporting the junior game, travelling to/from games, stewarding the ground etc. But more than any other figure will be cost of sales. Since a huge proportion of turnover is the corporate side of things you have the cost of putting those events on. Put on a midweek conference and you've got to supply food and drink, limitless prawn sandwiches, those flipcharts, little Headingley Experience pencils & pads, some kid to serve it up, someone to cook. Sell 40,000 shirts, say each one costs £5 to make and you've got a cost of £200k. Plus delivery from China.

The profit from all of which goes towards subsidising the cost of running a series of Rugby League teams at different levels. Because there's no doubt that taken on its own even with a salary cap that is going to be a loss making venture. Bundle the lot together and breaking even is probably the long term aim. Leeds, like most RL clubs, is not particularly run to make a profit although in this case the current owner isn't interested in providing support if they were to make ongoing losses either. So what a "normal" business might take as profit is ploughed back into supporting Rugby League/the club. If crowds or other turnover dipped for a sustained period my guess is Leeds would trim the community programmes as they don't generate any direct income. How much to plough into such, at a budgetary level, unrewarding areas is probably the conundrum most clubs face.

Re: Salary Cap : Fri Dec 25, 2009 6:28 pm  

Salary Cap essential for long tem survival of game. Don't want to get back to the bad old days when the whole game was nearly bankrupt trying to keep up with Wigan