Re: Who wins games - Players or Coach? : Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:23 am  

It depends really. As a player myself I'd like to say that players win games, purely because we can feel the game and how it is panning out. We know who the danger men are and can act accordingly. We are the ones setting up plays (albeit taught by the coach) but it's our execution that could be the difference between a win and loss. Our tackles (or in the Bulls case, lack of) which can determine a game.

However I am also under no illusion that the coach does play a huge huge part in preparing the players so they can go out and do that. Additionally, they also can see better when players fatigue or see that the opposition is shattered and they make the call and get an interchange on who could change the entire game. Furthermore they are the ones who pick the team, as we have seen in the past coaches have picked second rowers at halfback when the logical choice would have been someone else. It either pays off or it doesn't and that rests with the coach.

So to answer your question I would say it is a combination of things. However players should be accountable for their performance on the pitch. No matter what strategies the coach chooses, there is no excuse for basic errors (dropped balls, missed tackles, lack of concentration etc). However a coach should be held accountable for team selections, should admit when they have it wrong, and also should be held accountable for the personnel they recruit (Herbert and Seijka anyone?). And also their use of the bench.

Re: Who wins games - Players or Coach? : Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:22 pm  

People can generalise all they want, but if we're talking about just the Bulls, then overwhelmingly the elephant in the room was, is and remains the sheer weight of possession and position we give almost every team we play, through bad passes, dropped balls, avoidable penalties, shoite kicks and poor decisions.

A lot can be excused in such a ludicrous situation as the RFL put us in, and there's no doubt on their day we can play very well, but the kilometres of territory that we are conceding all the time, as well as being soooooooo frustrating to constantly watch, is THE factor that is killing us.

And I have no clue if the coach can do anything about that, or what is causing it.

I'd reckon if we kept possession just as much as your average side, then we'd be close to out of trouble now, if not exactly cracking any pots. But we seem determined to write the ultimate proof of the book "You Can't Win Without The Ball".

Re: Who wins games - Players or Coach? : Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:30 pm  

Its like asking what is the most important part of a car, the engine or gear box. Its hard to have one without the other. In Bradfords case this season you have probably the worst squad in the league so if anyone managed to get you out of the bottom 2 then they had performed miracles. Getting a lot of loan players in from other teams helped somewhat but it was still a big ask to over achieve. Look at the league table though and try and work out who are the under achievers and the over achievers.

My over achievers:-
London
Fev
Fax
Sheffield
Rochdale
Oldham

Under achievers:-
Hull KR
Toulouse
Batley
Dewsbury
Swinton
Bradford

I dont think its any coincidence that the over achievers seem to have had a level of consistency at coaching level.

Re: Who wins games - Players or Coach? : Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:33 pm  

Greg Florimos Boots wrote:

My over achievers:-
London
Fev
Fax
Sheffield
Rochdale
Oldham

Under achievers:-
Hull KR
Toulouse
Batley
Dewsbury
Swinton
Bradford

I dont think its any coincidence that the over achievers seem to have had a level of consistency at coaching level.

Interesting that one of the over-achievers on your list has just sacked their coach and appointed the coach of one of the under-achievers...

Re: Who wins games - Players or Coach? : Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:45 pm  

paulwalker71 wrote:

Interesting that one of the over-achievers on your list has just sacked their coach and appointed the coach of one of the under-achievers...

I think Swinton have been unlucky with injuries this season which has probably helped them to under achieve. I think Duffy is a good coach though.

Re: Who wins games - Players or Coach? : Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:46 pm  

Old_Northern wrote:

That's assuming Toovey will actually be our coach next season.

I was going on that assumption as it was one of the points relayed by Fr13day and FA from meeting AC

Re: Who wins games - Players or Coach? : Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:14 pm  

Neither players or coaches win us matches..

[Bulliac]

Re: Who wins games - Players or Coach? : Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:14 am  

Greg Florimos Boots wrote:

Its like asking what is the most important part of a car, the engine or gear box. Its hard to have one without the other. In Bradfords case this season you have probably the worst squad in the league so if anyone managed to get you out of the bottom 2 then they had performed miracles. Getting a lot of loan players in from other teams helped somewhat but it was still a big ask to over achieve. Look at the league table though and try and work out who are the under achievers and the over achievers.

My over achievers:-
London
Fev
Fax
Sheffield
Rochdale
Oldham

Under achievers:-
Hull KR
Toulouse
Batley
Dewsbury
Swinton
Bradford

I dont think its any coincidence that the over achievers seem to have had a level of consistency at coaching level.

I would argue that the Bulls haven't underachieved this year, in fact they are pretty much spot on what I expected at the start of the season.

Starting, remember on -12 points, with all the better players gone and a squad artificially bulked out with kids who wouldn't normally be expected to play more than the odd game, and, of course, no coach, then bottom is exactly where anyone looking objectively at the side would have thought they would be. Take away the minus 12 and think that with all the other distractions we'd actually be mid-tablish and it doesn't seem quite so bad. Give the new players a couple of weeks to 'bed in' and, unlikely as it appears, who knows what the '8's will bring? I'm far from sure what it proves in the coach v team argument, though!

Re: Who wins games - Players or Coach? : Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:39 am  

If we're gonna continue to kill ourselves every week maybe we could rebrand the club as Bradford Kenny

Re: Who wins games - Players or Coach? : Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:00 pm  

Smack him Jimmy wrote:

So we're bottom of our league and playing poop.

Fev have just sacked Jon Sharp, despite seeming on paper (and Fevgrinder will correct me if i'm wrong) him getting them two very good years in the Championship; consecutive finishing in top four, got to Challenge cup quarter finals, and currently sat 3rd in table.

John Duffy has given his notice in at Swinton (probably going to Fev)

Matt Diskin has turned Dewsbury round - from floundering just above us and not able to beat anyone, now they're 8th in the table and have won more games than Rochdale, Oldham, Swinton and us.

Then you look at Wakei who were in that unforgettable (for the wrong reasons) Million pound game against us - at the time they were struggling but (and no disrespect to Wakei) they were pretty similar standard to us.
Now they're in the top four of Super league, and playing some very good rugby.

So I'm thinking - how come other teams who were struggling and playing pretty poop like us - can improve so much and yet we just keep getting worse. I'm not asking why we are cr@p, we could write 50 pages on that. I'm just wondering what makes similar teams play so much better and actually win games - is it the player, the coach or both - and if the latter, why arent we getting any better?

SHJ,

Personally I am really surprised with JS getting the sack and even more so at the timing of it. His record at Fev over the period doesn't look bad: 2015 - 5th, 2016 - 4th, 2017 - 3rd?, winning the Shield in 2015, quarter finals of the CC this year. It had crossed my mind that if Fev made 3rd this year, won a couple of games in the middle 8's and Bradford got relegated, to come back on here and ask if everyone thought Toovey is a better coach than JS. Though the truth is that given the players available to both coaches I realise that this would not have been a fair question.

For me it looks to be more going on behind the scenes than meets the eye. I guess I will never know.

However back to the question, I personally think that it is a combination of the two. You have to have a coach that can communicate and explain what he wants the players to do. And then you have to have players that can take on board what has been requested and execute it. Some players don't have the ability to undertake what is being asked of them and some coaches do not have the ability to communicate what they want. Don't forget not everyone learns in the same way and sometime you have to adapt your communication skills to get things over.

I would go with it being 60% Players and 40% Coaching that wins games and the 20% difference is that the players have to be good enough to adapt on the pitch to current circumstances, which are sometime out side of the control of them or the coach.