: Sun Mar 08, 2009 3:34 pm  

anarkik wrote:

What exactly is it we're supposed to be building, something that is a shadow of the potential of a club like Bradford? The wait and see argument no longer holds. Last night Cas beat Catalans and James Evans was a standout with two tries, one a superb solo effort. He rarely did anything wrong in a Bulls shirt, saved our Bacon in the Centenary match against Leeds and was as safe as houses in defense. So what did McNamara do in his rebuilding phase - get rid of him and sign more second rowers, just at the point decent centres were at a premium.

Nor do I believe this council of doom from people like Adeybull - whose argument seems to be (he'll correct me if it isn't) we can't get rid because it'll cost us money, we're not sure who might want to come and coach and unless we know everything going on behind the scenes and have a perfectly worked out alternative, including having audited the accounts, the status quo should be preserved.

The status quo and the tolerance of it for so long is what is killing us. There's nothing being built, it's being actively, if not intentionally, undermined instead. Macca's a good assistant coach, but he's not been able to prove himself as a an SL coach with a side like Bradford. Many, many coaches would love the opportunity he's had and they'll be beating the door down for the opportunity should it become available. Time to look again, start afresh and change the culture of wait and see. Waiting too long will see even more decline and reduce the pool of applicants, not enhance it.

Tigertot is right, there was no heart and soul yesterday, heads dropped easily and there was a resignation to losing long before it became a certainty.

Unfortunately, there now seems resignation to losing before we even kick off.

: Sun Mar 08, 2009 3:51 pm  

anarkik wrote:

What exactly is it we're supposed to be building, something that is a shadow of the potential of a club like Bradford? The wait and see argument no longer holds. Last night Cas beat Catalans and James Evans was a standout with two tries, one a superb solo effort. He rarely did anything wrong in a Bulls shirt, saved our Bacon in the Centenary match against Leeds and was as safe as houses in defense. So what did McNamara do in his rebuilding phase - get rid of him and sign more second rowers, just at the point decent centres were at a premium.

Unfair given that the club wanted to keep him and would have had they not been misled on the RFL as to which players would be counted on the quota.

Nor do I believe this council of doom from people like Adeybull - whose argument seems to be (he'll correct me if it isn't) we can't get rid because it'll cost us money, we're not sure who might want to come and coach and unless we know everything going on behind the scenes and have a perfectly worked out alternative, including having audited the accounts, the status quo should be preserved.

The status quo and the tolerance of it for so long is what is killing us.

If we become a club that sacks coaches every couple of years, prepare for a lot more mid to lower table finishes to tolerate.

There's nothing being built, it's being actively, if not intentionally, undermined instead.

The youth structure is coming on, but it isn't a quick fix.

Macca's a good assistant coach, but he's not been able to prove himself as a an SL coach with a side like Bradford.

He's had his moments, but faces a challenge now.

Many, many coaches would love the opportunity he's had and they'll be beating the door down for the opportunity should it become available. Time to look again, start afresh and change the culture of wait and see. Waiting too long will see even more decline and reduce the pool of applicants, not enhance it.

Time to rip up all the work we've done in the best few years and start again from scratch.

Tigertot is right, there was no heart and soul yesterday, heads dropped easily and there was a resignation to losing long before it became a certainty.

Maybe. But sides have been a lot worse than this and come back to have a say. Look at Wigan last year for example.

: Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:42 am  

af wrote:

Nothing's changed since last week. We're rebuilding. That takes time. Years. Not weeks.

Another one of the favorite excuses trotted out. Normally during a rebuilding phase there's signs of progress oblivious improvement but we aren't getting that. The classic example of this is Castleford who finished bottom of the league last year. The went away looked at the areas they need to improve on and went out and addressed them that's rebuilding.

: Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:50 am  

redeverready wrote: oblivious improvement Freudian slip. Brian Mac always gets mentioned approvingly on here, but where's the evidence that he's improving matters at the club. Not here... http://www.slstats.org/t12/Harlequins%2 ... mmary.html http://www.slstats.org/t12/Harlequins%2 ... mmary.html http://www.slstats.org/t12/Harlequins%2 ... mmary.html ... but because it's not taking place at Bradford, he gets a free pass. I think Brian Mac probably is a good coach that is making an impact that can't be seen in first team results just yet. I hope he gets the opportunity to see things through at Quins, it's their best chance to become competitive. But it's going to take time...

redeverready wrote: oblivious improvement Freudian slip. Brian Mac always gets mentioned approvingly on here, but where's the evidence that he's improving matters at the club. Not here... http://www.slstats.org/t12/Harlequins%2 ... mmary.html http://www.slstats.org/t12/Harlequins%2 ... mmary.html http://www.slstats.org/t12/Harlequins%2 ... mmary.html ... but because it's not taking place at Bradford, he gets a free pass. I think Brian Mac probably is a good coach that is making an impact that can't be seen in first team results just yet. I hope he gets the opportunity to see things through at Quins, it's their best chance to become competitive. But it's going to take time...

: Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:11 am  

af wrote:

Unfair given that the club wanted to keep him and would have had they not been misled on the RFL as to which players would be counted on the quota.

Is it the club signed Steve Menzies knowing that we would have one overseas player too many. When the decision came to decide which of the out of contract overseas player to keep Evans or Tadulala thay opted for Tadulala not Evans so hows that wanting to keep him.

af wrote:

If we become a club that sacks coaches every couple of years, prepare for a lot more mid to lower table finishes to tolerate.

Why if the coach at the time shows he's improving things then their won't be a problem.

af wrote:

The youth structure is coming on, but it isn't a quick fix.

Most people would except that. But you can't get away from the fact that the first team isn't. What's more important to attracting fans a good youth programme or a competitive first team.

af wrote:

He's had his moments, but faces a challenge now.

The bad performances far outweigh the good ones.

af wrote:

Time to rip up all the work we've done in the best few years and start again from scratch.

Yes because it's not returning the required results

af wrote:

Maybe. But sides have been a lot worse than this and come back to have a say. Look at Wigan last year for example.

This is the thing you don't seem to be able to grasp. The problem isn't just now it's been building for a while like only 7 wins from our last 18 games which have come against only 4 different sides Hull KR, Hull FC, Castleford and Wakefield. An away record of 4 wins in the last 16 games.

[Bullseye]

: Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:12 am  

We often talk about re-building but we're still going through the decline. Things are a real mess at the moment. The present squad is seriously imbalanced and for the most part looks short on confidence, desire and quality. I can't see where any improvement is to come from without an injection of cash or new ideas. The coaching team seems increasingly baffled by performances too. Can we be sure that if we stick it out that we'll definitely see the benefits? It's a real test of faith!

The club has made much of junior recruitment but are obviously not yet ready to play the youngsters in the first team. On the one hand one can appreciate that you don't want to ruin the kids by playing them in a poor team, look at how Wigan lost a generation of players by doing exactly that. On the other hand in 98 we were forced to play the kids and the likes of Fielden, Deacon, Peacock and Pryce came through.

It struck me on Saturday night that our re-building process is likely to take much longer than that we went through in 98. Cas's re-building process has taken years and a visit to NL1 on the way. I remember Leeds going through a similar terrible period between 99 and 2003/4. In some ways we're rather like that Leeds side of 2001. A lack of quality, a young coach playing gcatch up and the kids not ready yet to come through. Meanwhile the fans called for Powell's head and bemonaed the poor recruitment they made.

Where the comparison with Leeds ends is that back then they had Caddick guaranteeing their financial position. They could plan long term without fear of going out of business, and I doubt they had to cut backroom staff, in fact they built the Leeds rugby complex at Kirkstall.

We however are in a tighter spot. If the first team can't improve significantly then crowds and income will drop to a level where we can't afford to keep the promising youngsters who'll get better offers from other clubs. Where will we be then?

I fear that drastic measures may soon be necessary and if that means a shake up in the coaching team then we'll have to bite the financial bullet in the short term or face the long term going down the toilet.

: Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:13 am  

af wrote: Freudian slip. Brian Mac always gets mentioned approvingly on here, but where's the evidence that he's improving matters at the club. Not here... http://www.slstats.org/t12/Harlequins%2 ... mmary.html http://www.slstats.org/t12/Harlequins%2 ... mmary.html http://www.slstats.org/t12/Harlequins%2 ... mmary.html ... but because it's not taking place at Bradford, he gets a free pass. I think Brian Mac probably is a good coach that is making an impact that can't be seen in first team results just yet. I hope he gets the opportunity to see things through at Quins, it's their best chance to become competitive. But it's going to take time... Ive never said I wanted McDermott as coach I believe we need some with more experience.

af wrote: Freudian slip. Brian Mac always gets mentioned approvingly on here, but where's the evidence that he's improving matters at the club. Not here... http://www.slstats.org/t12/Harlequins%2 ... mmary.html http://www.slstats.org/t12/Harlequins%2 ... mmary.html http://www.slstats.org/t12/Harlequins%2 ... mmary.html ... but because it's not taking place at Bradford, he gets a free pass. I think Brian Mac probably is a good coach that is making an impact that can't be seen in first team results just yet. I hope he gets the opportunity to see things through at Quins, it's their best chance to become competitive. But it's going to take time... Ive never said I wanted McDermott as coach I believe we need some with more experience.

: Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:19 am  

Bullseye wrote:

We often talk about re-building but we're still going through the decline. Things are a real mess at the moment. The present squad is seriously imbalanced and for the most part looks short on confidence, desire and quality. I can't see where any improvement is to come from without an injection of cash or new ideas. The coaching team seems increasingly baffled by performances too. Can we be sure that if we stick it out that we'll definitely see the benefits? It's a real test of faith!

The club has made much of junior recruitment but are obviously not yet ready to play the youngsters in the first team. On the one hand one can appreciate that you don't want to ruin the kids by playing them in a poor team, look at how Wigan lost a generation of players by doing exactly that. On the other hand in 98 we were forced to play the kids and the likes of Fielden, Deacon, Peacock and Pryce came through.

It struck me on Saturday night that our re-building process is likely to take much longer than that we went through in 98. Cas's re-building process has taken years and a visit to NL1 on the way. I remember Leeds going through a similar terrible period between 99 and 2003/4. In some ways we're rather like that Leeds side of 2001. A lack of quality, a young coach playing gcatch up and the kids not ready yet to come through. Meanwhile the fans called for Powell's head and bemonaed the poor recruitment they made.

Where the comparison with Leeds ends is that back then they had Caddick guaranteeing their financial position. They could plan long term without fear of going out of business, and I doubt they had to cut backroom staff, in fact they built the Leeds rugby complex at Kirkstall.

We however are in a tighter spot. If the first team can't improve significantly then crowds and income will drop to a level where we can't afford to keep the promising youngsters who'll get better offers from other clubs. Where will we be then?

I fear that drastic measures may soon be necessary and if that means a shake up in the coaching team then we'll have to bite the financial bullet in the short term or face the long term going down the toilet.

Exactley. The argument for keep McNamara is that we can't afford not to is weak. If the performances and results continue as they are more and more fans will stop coming to games. Die hard fans will come to games because were playing. But the less committed come to be entertained and it they aren't they won't waste their money much longer.

[Bullseye]

: Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:38 am  

Bullseye wrote:

I fear that drastic measures may soon be necessary and if that means a shake up in the coaching team then we'll have to bite the financial bullet in the short term or face the long term going down the toilet.

redeverready wrote:

Exactley. The argument for keep McNamara is that we can't afford not to is weak. If the performances and results continue as they are more and more fans will stop coming to games. Die hard fans will come to games because were playing. But the less committed come to be entertained and it they aren't they won't waste their money much longer.

I just hope that if the decision is made to make the change then we don't just bring in someone of equally unproven ability. I think what the squad needs is a coach to inspire them with confidence and who has experience they can respect. A new coach needs to have a proven track record, preferably of getting players to perform above themselves. Is there anyone out there that fits the bill? If there isn't then we risk not managing to fix the problem and end up spending cash we can ill afford. It's not a decision to take lightly.

: Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:10 pm  

I still think it's too early to boot out Macca, however Saturday's performance was a huge backward step.
I fear there is a bit more going on behind closed doors than we know about.

The most disappointing element was the lack of fire and enthusiasm being shown by pretty much all the players.

I took 5 people to their first live RL game. They were genuinely excited about going, had adopted the Bulls, were making up songs beforehand etc etc. 60 mins in one of them said "I thought this was going to be a good game? We're getting battered. Can't we support Wigan instead?"
That about summed the evening up for me!

I like others have mentioned think it's time for some honesty from our club.
I could live with finishing bottom of the table if I understood the reasons behind it and was given some confidence about future plans.

After all we've seen in Australia the club finishing bottom go on to win the title the following year. This demonstrates what can be done with the right set up off the field as well as on it.

Is the whole sporting village drama distracting everyone?
Is there no respect for Macca from the players?
Do the players believe they are good enough?

I'm afraid at the moment; there are more questions than answers for me.