Re: Winding up order ? : Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:13 pm  

The RFL put Bradford in special measures and suspended registration of players based on this.

Can't see how it was an error. Overdue tax bills don't get filed & forgotten about.

Has the loan from Barclays been cleared? The £200k loan from Bradford Council?

Re: Winding up order ? : Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:29 pm  

roofaldo2 wrote:

Really? Could have fooled me with your insistence that your "predictions", all of which you explained by showing you were ignoring most of the Bulls income, where fact that Bradford were going out of business.

whether my individual figures were accurate or not, the basic formula was spot on. You had received 840k of investment from your owner BEFORE you missed a wages payment. You then received another 900k from your owner to meet that wages payment.....so minimum of his investment used in 2013 is 1,040,000 notes (200k wages). Little is any new income since then...Catalan and London fans arrive via skateboard...but you continue to say the remaining 700k hasn't been used to pay bills this year.
Direct Debit sales for next years ST and please let us get 1,000 sold before Hudds point to stealing from peter to pay paul.......and lest we forget, the TAX BILL that was forgotten
I hope Bradford Bull pull through, but at the moment, the first 12 months has not gone to plan and to deny this is insane!

Re: Winding up order ? : Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:30 pm  

BiffasBoys wrote:

The RFL put Bradford in special measures and suspended registration of players based on this.

Can't see how it was an error. Overdue tax bills don't get filed & forgotten about.

Has the loan from Barclays been cleared? The £200k loan from Bradford Council?

Over, done with, move on!

Re: Winding up order ? : Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:32 pm  

gutterfax wrote:

whether my individual figures were accurate or not, the basic formula was spot on. You had received 840k of investment from your owner BEFORE you missed a wages payment. You then received another 900k from your owner to meet that wages payment.....so minimum of his investment used in 2013 is 1,040,000 notes (200k wages). Little is any new income since then...Catalan and London fans arrive via skateboard...but you continue to say the remaining 700k hasn't been used to pay bills this year.
Direct Debit sales for next years ST and please let us get 1,000 sold before Hudds point to stealing from peter to pay paul.......and lest we forget, the TAX BILL that was forgotten
I hope Bradford Bull pull through, but at the moment, the first 12 months has not gone to plan and to deny this is insane!

Omar Khan bought the assets at Odsal, valued at £3m by P&A Partnership. for £225k. There is no record of any further investment from him until the recent story of him cashing some assets to fund unpaid wages. There's no actual evidence of how much he put in in the public domain.

The £200k loan from Bradford Council isn't secured on club assets or income. The Barclays bank loan is.

£1m+ in season tickets for 2013. A main sponsor in Provident worth a reputed £300k a year, two big loans, merchandising and other sponsorship income, plus two big events held at Odsal & yet wages & tax bills left unpaid.

The club has been spending what it could not afford, this right off the back of the old company being liquidated.

With the play offs missed again season ticket sales will be unlikely to hit 6,500 for 2014, thus meaning a further drop in revenue.

Hopefully this alleged injection of funds from Omar Khan will secure the Bulls in the short term, but I fear it's only a matter of time before financial trouble rears it's head.

Re: Winding up order ? : Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:38 pm  

gutterfax wrote:

whether my individual figures were accurate or not, the basic formula was spot on. You had received 840k of investment from your owner BEFORE you missed a wages payment. You then received another 900k from your owner to meet that wages payment.....so minimum of his investment used in 2013 is 1,040,000 notes (200k wages). Little is any new income since then...Catalan and London fans arrive via skateboard...but you continue to say the remaining 700k hasn't been used to pay bills this year.
Direct Debit sales for next years ST and please let us get 1,000 sold before Hudds point to stealing from peter to pay paul.......and lest we forget, the TAX BILL that was forgotten
I hope Bradford Bull pull through, but at the moment, the first 12 months has not gone to plan and to deny this is insane!

I think this feeling of 'something not being right' that you have is probably down to how our reduced central funding has not been reflected in the general operations of the club. The current predicament at Wakefield is a perfect example, where the new bloke in charge has come in and seen that the club's wage bill is way too high in comparison to their incomings. Remember this is with full share of sky money (plus some of ours). As a result, he is now gradually reducing the wage bill so that Wakefield can survive while not living beyond their means.

When we were docked our £600k, the directors had a choice to make. We either lower the wage bill to match incomings, or they rely on funding from elsewhere - be it sponsorship or Omar himself.
Their first season in charge was a new experience for them in all facets - they had absolutely no experience in running a rugby league club.
With this is mind, I would be amazed if their budgets were anywhere close to being accurate. We know for a fact that their income from ST sales was wrong as they were hoping for 10k to be sold. I can only presume our squad was established under the assumption that these levels of ST sales would be reached. Obviously that didn't happen and despite the great efforts made by Omar and co to secure some lucrative sponsorship deals, we inevitably had to fall back on investment from Omar - I suspect he has had to provide far more capital than he had expected when he bought the club.

So now we enter our second season with OK and his team in charge. Budgets will have been drawn up and I can only hope that they are more realistic this time. OK will have a much better idea of how much income the club will have coming in this time, from both STs and other sources. If the budgets Are more sensible, and yet we are still making new signings for 2014, then I am willing to put my faith in Omar and his team that they have got their sh*t together for next season and they are confident that they can operate successfully.

The alternative scenario is that they still have massively flawed budgets and have taken the risk to not reduce our wage bill by any significant amount, hoping that Bulls fans will but STs in their droves and everything will by hunky dorey. I am willing to gove Omar a bit more credit than to do something like that. At the end of the day he has made his millions by being a businessman, not by taking risks.

Re: Winding up order ? : Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:30 pm  

Nothus wrote:

I think this feeling of 'something not being right' that you have is probably down to how our reduced central funding has not been reflected in the general operations of the club. The current predicament at Wakefield is a perfect example, where the new bloke in charge has come in and seen that the club's wage bill is way too high in comparison to their incomings. Remember this is with full share of sky money (plus some of ours). As a result, he is now gradually reducing the wage bill so that Wakefield can survive while not living beyond their means.

When we were docked our £600k, the directors had a choice to make. We either lower the wage bill to match incomings, or they rely on funding from elsewhere - be it sponsorship or Omar himself.
Their first season in charge was a new experience for them in all facets - they had absolutely no experience in running a rugby league club.
With this is mind, I would be amazed if their budgets were anywhere close to being accurate. We know for a fact that their income from ST sales was wrong as they were hoping for 10k to be sold. I can only presume our squad was established under the assumption that these levels of ST sales would be reached. Obviously that didn't happen and despite the great efforts made by Omar and co to secure some lucrative sponsorship deals, we inevitably had to fall back on investment from Omar - I suspect he has had to provide far more capital than he had expected when he bought the club.

So now we enter our second season with OK and his team in charge. Budgets will have been drawn up and I can only hope that they are more realistic this time. OK will have a much better idea of how much income the club will have coming in this time, from both STs and other sources. If the budgets Are more sensible, and yet we are still making new signings for 2014, then I am willing to put my faith in Omar and his team that they have got their sh*t together for next season and they are confident that they can operate successfully.

The alternative scenario is that they still have massively flawed budgets and have taken the risk to not reduce our wage bill by any significant amount, hoping that Bulls fans will but STs in their droves and everything will by hunky dorey. I am willing to gove Omar a bit more credit than to do something like that. At the end of the day he has made his millions by being a businessman, not by taking risks.

Good post. I believe that budgets would have being adjusted, but they will be aiming for top 8, or a cup run for abit of extra revenue. That's probably true for 5+ teams in the comp and shouldn't be a negative, it should be a reason to back the season ticket drive.

As for money for the signings, when you set it out you can see where the money has come from. (Clearly making some assumptions, correct me if I'm way off!)
Diskin - Must have resigned on a much lower wage
Platt - On a good contract from a time gone by
Langley - One of the top earners at the club
Whitehead - Read £2,000 a week before, which must be up there.
Lulia - Again must be a top earner

Re: Winding up order ? : Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:52 am  

BiffasBoys wrote:

.... valued at £3m

The value - when you take into account just what it is that you are buying and letting yourself in for - is nearer 1 Carrot. And that is of pretty much any club. You're basically buying a large incinerator which will only run on cash.

BiffasBoys wrote:

.. for £225k.

Nope

BiffasBoys wrote:

...wages & tax bills left unpaid.

Nope, no wages or tax bills are unpaid.

BiffasBoys wrote:

. this alleged injection of funds from Omar Khan ...

"Alleged"? What is the alternative explanation?

BiffasBoys wrote:

. I fear it's only a matter of time before financial trouble rears it's head.

And what? So do the fans of pretty much every other club!

Re: Winding up order ? : Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:39 am  

gutterfax wrote:

whether my individual figures were accurate or not, the basic formula was spot on. You had received 840k of investment from your owner BEFORE you missed a wages payment. You then received another 900k from your owner to meet that wages payment.....so minimum of his investment used in 2013 is 1,040,000 notes (200k wages). Little is any new income since then...Catalan and London fans arrive via skateboard...but you continue to say the remaining 700k hasn't been used to pay bills this year.
Direct Debit sales for next years ST and please let us get 1,000 sold before Hudds point to stealing from peter to pay paul.......and lest we forget, the TAX BILL that was forgotten
I hope Bradford Bull pull through, but at the moment, the first 12 months has not gone to plan and to deny this is insane!

Who's denying the first 12 months haven't gone to plan? But as that plan was conceived by people who've never run a sporting club before, it's only natural that there'd be some teething troubles and I've never said what the remaining monies have been used for, if anything. This is another case of you making something up and calling it fact.

As for the missed salary payment, the club knew it was coming and tried to get the investment into the club to prevent it, unfortunately due to a banking error, this was delayed.

How can your basic formula be "spot on" if you ignore or discount large numbers of other incomes and only use a select few in order to justify your argument? That's like saying 2+2 = 1,003,254

As for the oversight regarding the tax bill, the club have already addressed that AND it was properly addressed at the time. If not then HMRC would have taken out a notice in the London Gazette, which is what they would legally be required to do in the course of pursuing a winding up order. This never happened, as the club paid the outstanding amount in full and within the time given to them by HMRC.

Re: Winding up order ? : Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:12 am  

roofaldo2 wrote:

Who's denying the first 12 months haven't gone to plan? But as that plan was conceived by people who've never run a sporting club before, it's only natural that there'd be some teething troubles and I've never said what the remaining monies have been used for, if anything. This is another case of you making something up and calling it fact.

Teething troubles?

roofaldo2 wrote:

As for the missed salary payment, the club knew it was coming and tried to get the investment into the club to prevent it, unfortunately due to a banking error, this was delayed.

It's them pesky teething troubles eh

roofaldo2 wrote:

How can your basic formula be "spot on" if you ignore or discount large numbers of other incomes and only use a select few in order to justify your argument? That's like saying 2+2 = 1,003,254

Regardless of if the Bulls had an income of 5 million or 25 million this year...FACT is it wasn't enough. Simple enough for you?

roofaldo2 wrote:

As for the oversight regarding the tax bill, the club have already addressed that AND it was properly addressed at the time. If not then HMRC would have taken out a notice in the London Gazette, which is what they would legally be required to do in the course of pursuing a winding up order. This never happened, as the club paid the outstanding amount in full and within the time given to them by HMRC.

Them pesky teething troubles again.... BTW...forgetting to pay the bill is one of the lamest excuses I have ever heard but you will patently lap it up. The only excuse you've yet to use is that the Dog ate your homework.......

Re: Winding up order ? : Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:54 am  

gutterfax wrote:

Teething troubles?

It's them pesky teething troubles eh

Regardless of if the Bulls had an income of 5 million or 25 million this year...FACT is it wasn't enough. Simple enough for you?

Them pesky teething troubles again.... BTW...forgetting to pay the bill is one of the lamest excuses I have ever heard but you will patently lap it up. The only excuse you've yet to use is that the Dog ate your homework.......

Right, so you can't refute my argument so you're resorting to being childish?

What would you call it then? First year running a sporting club. 2 problems regarding cash, both of which have been resolved.

So the Bulls haven't had enough money this year? So who do they currently owe money to?
It's not the players, they're paid.
It's not the HMRC, they're paid.

Who is oh mystic maker up of figures?

Come on, tell us all. Or perhaps you'd like to go make up a quote and attribute that to me instead?