Re: Home and Away : Mon Apr 11, 2016 7:52 pm  

I always find these fascinating and informative. Thank you very much for doing them!

Re: Home and Away : Mon Apr 11, 2016 8:04 pm  

debaser wrote:

vbfg - have you ever thought of taking up a hobby? Or a job?

Bless you, no.

Re: Home and Away : Mon Apr 11, 2016 9:07 pm  

I've watched a lot of games, but can't say I've ever thought a ref had changed his M O due to crowd pressure.

Otoh over the years I recall commonly going away from a game where I felt we were on the wrong end of the penalty count until late in the game, when it seemed the ref had given us a spate of late but useless pens, to even the count up.

Always did wonder if the impression was ever correct

Re: Home and Away : Mon Apr 11, 2016 9:37 pm  

That's the thing, I don't think they do change their MO. There is no part of how they go about games that is subject to any kind of change, concious or otherwise, based on who they're playing in front of. And yet their performances tell a slightly different story. It is only slight. Very slight. Almost imperceptibly so. That can only be, in my view, due to pressure from the crowd. Even if that's just natural human empathy at minuscule levels rather than out and out intimidation.

I'm kind of curious to see which grounds have the most pronounced effects now. If it's Odsal I think we can assume empathy. There may be some grounds where there is completely the opposite effect. Before I look I will suggest Wakefield for that, depending on how racist they're being.

Re: Home and Away : Mon Apr 11, 2016 9:39 pm  

It's interesting to me that those thus far offering a negative home advantage in terms of penalties per game (Cobb and the other one) have ref'd relatively very few games at that level. Which is not to suggest that they're not up to it, more that there has been less time for a pattern to become established.

Re: Home and Away : Mon Apr 11, 2016 9:50 pm  

And fwiw, let's say crowds are the cause of this. Your team, over the course of the game, has given away some legit penalties. You're behind in the count. The ref starts to think your team is taking the mickey a bit and you fall behind a few more. The fans of that team, and it could be home or away at this point, are really starting to kick off and get on his back about it...

If the crowd is the cause is that not then the perfect recipe for a referee, again unwittingly, somewhat evening things up?

I don't think it has to be concious choice on the part of the ref' at all for this to happen.

Re: Home and Away : Mon Apr 11, 2016 9:56 pm  

FWIW, this is an excellent book. It's an American book covering American sports, and it has a chapter discussing effects of vocal crowds on referees and umpires. Most of the data it uses is (sharp intake of breath) baseball related. Its conclusions are that when there is even the briefest moment of ambiguity of any kind anyone will look for outside help, consciously or not. In some circumstances even eye contact is enough to provide it. Humans gonna human.

FWIW, this is an excellent book. It's an American book covering American sports, and it has a chapter discussing effects of vocal crowds on referees and umpires. Most of the data it uses is (sharp intake of breath) baseball related. Its conclusions are that when there is even the briefest moment of ambiguity of any kind anyone will look for outside help, consciously or not. In some circumstances even eye contact is enough to provide it. Humans gonna human.

Re: Home and Away : Mon Apr 11, 2016 10:01 pm  

Don't suppose you have a breakdown on the differences between the current Odsal dressing rooms and when the ref had to climb up the steps and follow the horses backside to the old dressing rooms. There used to be some very entertaining walks on a Sunday afternnon.

Re: Home and Away : Mon Apr 11, 2016 10:05 pm  

Not penalties. I have results with referees in the top flight from 1980 though, so I have a few years of that. Speedway Final was '85, but I was but a nipper. When did the refurbishment happen and the long walk end?

Re: Home and Away : Mon Apr 11, 2016 10:15 pm  

Not actually sure. Can't find any mention other than mid 80's. If the world final was there in 85 then it must have been 83/84 i guess