[Bullseye]

Re: Expansion of RL & French Teams : Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:27 pm  

M@islebugs wrote: SO, what is the plan? Or is it just whoever comes along with money to fund a club can get to the SL and another once proud club goes into a league with zero funding on an inexorable journey to becoming Oldham? I don't want to watch that, much less pay for it because it renders our game soulless, and without meaning, which I think is what Rowley really meant. Ask Ralph what the plan is... But it's always been like this. The successful clubs are the ones with financial backing that are well run. Once that disappears the rot sets in. It's been the case for just about every club. It just happens to be that Catalans and Toulouse are successful at the moment. Would you be happier to see them failing? I daresay it won't last forever because it never does. The game as a whole is in a rut just like it was in the late 60s/early 70s. People losing interest and finding other ways to spend their time so fewer people playing and watching. Clubs struggling financially. A vacuum of ideas and leadership at the top. Self interest filling the vacuum. Anyone on here remember when the RFL asked some external consultants to do a root and branch review into the game? It was called the Caine Report it was ruthless in it's criticism of the RFL. I can't see Ralph commissioning something like this again but it's what is needed. Tony Collins writes about it all here - so many paralells: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Rwe ... ue&f=false

M@islebugs wrote: SO, what is the plan? Or is it just whoever comes along with money to fund a club can get to the SL and another once proud club goes into a league with zero funding on an inexorable journey to becoming Oldham? I don't want to watch that, much less pay for it because it renders our game soulless, and without meaning, which I think is what Rowley really meant. Ask Ralph what the plan is... But it's always been like this. The successful clubs are the ones with financial backing that are well run. Once that disappears the rot sets in. It's been the case for just about every club. It just happens to be that Catalans and Toulouse are successful at the moment. Would you be happier to see them failing? I daresay it won't last forever because it never does. The game as a whole is in a rut just like it was in the late 60s/early 70s. People losing interest and finding other ways to spend their time so fewer people playing and watching. Clubs struggling financially. A vacuum of ideas and leadership at the top. Self interest filling the vacuum. Anyone on here remember when the RFL asked some external consultants to do a root and branch review into the game? It was called the Caine Report it was ruthless in it's criticism of the RFL. I can't see Ralph commissioning something like this again but it's what is needed. Tony Collins writes about it all here - so many paralells: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Rwe ... ue&f=false

Re: Expansion of RL & French Teams : Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:06 pm  

Thanks for link Bullseye, a very interesting read

I'd like to grab a copy of that book but - wow - the price is eye-watering! I'm going to keep a lookout for a reasonably priced second-hand copy.

[Bullseye]

Re: Expansion of RL & French Teams : Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:29 pm  

Second hand ones on Amazon for about £20.

Re: Expansion of RL & French Teams : Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:31 pm  

Bullseye wrote: Ask Ralph what the plan is... But it's always been like this. The successful clubs are the ones with financial backing that are well run. Once that disappears the rot sets in. It's been the case for just about every club. It just happens to be that Catalans and Toulouse are successful at the moment. Would you be happier to see them failing? I daresay it won't last forever because it never does. The game as a whole is in a rut just like it was in the late 60s/early 70s. People losing interest and finding other ways to spend their time so fewer people playing and watching. Clubs struggling financially. A vacuum of ideas and leadership at the top. Self interest filling the vacuum. Anyone on here remember when the RFL asked some external consultants to do a root and branch review into the game? It was called the Caine Report it was ruthless in it's criticism of the RFL. I can't see Ralph commissioning something like this again but it's what is needed. Tony Collins writes about it all here - so many paralells: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Rwe ... ue&f=false It hasn't always been like this. Collins speaks of the move from regional to national identity with the advent of TV among other things. How does 2 French and an intended Canadian team sit within this? It's radical by any standards and any sport. We're down to 10 top flight English clubs and fewer academies with 2nd tier cast adrift. Go ask Ralph about the plan?? I'm saying it's a self-evident disaster with falling TV deal, attendances, crucially at major events. You're saying admitting 2 French teams with no evidence, idea or plan whatsoever of potential benefit is of itself a good thing because it sort of looks a bit less northern and depressing.

Bullseye wrote: Ask Ralph what the plan is... But it's always been like this. The successful clubs are the ones with financial backing that are well run. Once that disappears the rot sets in. It's been the case for just about every club. It just happens to be that Catalans and Toulouse are successful at the moment. Would you be happier to see them failing? I daresay it won't last forever because it never does. The game as a whole is in a rut just like it was in the late 60s/early 70s. People losing interest and finding other ways to spend their time so fewer people playing and watching. Clubs struggling financially. A vacuum of ideas and leadership at the top. Self interest filling the vacuum. Anyone on here remember when the RFL asked some external consultants to do a root and branch review into the game? It was called the Caine Report it was ruthless in it's criticism of the RFL. I can't see Ralph commissioning something like this again but it's what is needed. Tony Collins writes about it all here - so many paralells: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Rwe ... ue&f=false It hasn't always been like this. Collins speaks of the move from regional to national identity with the advent of TV among other things. How does 2 French and an intended Canadian team sit within this? It's radical by any standards and any sport. We're down to 10 top flight English clubs and fewer academies with 2nd tier cast adrift. Go ask Ralph about the plan?? I'm saying it's a self-evident disaster with falling TV deal, attendances, crucially at major events. You're saying admitting 2 French teams with no evidence, idea or plan whatsoever of potential benefit is of itself a good thing because it sort of looks a bit less northern and depressing.

[Bullseye]

Re: Expansion of RL & French Teams : Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:04 am  

M@islebugs wrote:

It hasn't always been like this. Collins speaks of the move from regional to national identity with the advent of TV among other things. How does 2 French and an intended Canadian team sit within this? It's radical by any standards and any sport. We're down to 10 top flight English clubs and fewer academies with 2nd tier cast adrift.

Go ask Ralph about the plan?? I'm saying it's a self-evident disaster with falling TV deal, attendances, crucially at major events. You're saying admitting 2 French teams with no evidence, idea or plan whatsoever of potential benefit is of itself a good thing because it sort of looks a bit less northern and depressing.

The game has shrunk since the financial crash, no doubt about it. That for me is the main cause of the state things are in. Lack of money. And it's only going to get worse as TV money dries up. The game doesn't (and never has had) a model other than "rich clubs are the most successful" so those with wealthy owners end up in SL. Maybe it should have a different model? What would that look like? We already have a salary cap but still only 4 winners of SL in 25 years.

I was dubious about Toronto because of the lack of any firm foundations there, I always thought it was doomed. In France though the game has grassroots and has been played there for nearly 100 years. I've nothing against a French team in SL just like I've nothing against NZ Warriors playing in the NRL.

I think we share concerns about the state of the game in this country and that's down to a lack of leadership and expertise in the RFL and clubs. Chucking out Catalans and Toulouse and replacing them with Leigh and Fev wouldn't change a thing for the positive IMO.

Re: Expansion of RL & French Teams : Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:18 am  

Bullseye wrote:

The game has shrunk since the financial crash, no doubt about it. That for me is the main cause of the state things are in. Lack of money. And it's only going to get worse as TV money dries up. The game doesn't (and never has had) a model other than "rich clubs are the most successful" so those with wealthy owners end up in SL. Maybe it should have a different model? What would that look like? We already have a salary cap but still only 4 winners of SL in 25 years.

I was dubious about Toronto because of the lack of any firm foundations there, I always thought it was doomed. In France though the game has grassroots and has been played there for nearly 100 years. I've nothing against a French team in SL just like I've nothing against NZ Warriors playing in the NRL.

I think we share concerns about the state of the game in this country and that's down to a lack of leadership and expertise in the RFL and clubs. Chucking out Catalans and Toulouse and replacing them with Leigh and Fev wouldn't change a thing for the positive IMO.

Fair enough. The elephant in the room for all Bulls fans is that there's a club with a history of 10-15k support in a huge city, with a history of producing some of the best players in the world, and whose decline mirrors that of SL to an uncanny degree. My fear is we've reduced SL to the level of Wakefield and are in the process of reducing British RL to the level of France.

[Bullseye]

Re: Expansion of RL & French Teams : Fri Oct 15, 2021 9:47 am  

M@islebugs wrote:

Fair enough. The elephant in the room for all Bulls fans is that there's a club with a history of 10-15k support in a huge city, with a history of producing some of the best players in the world, and whose decline mirrors that of SL to an uncanny degree. My fear is we've reduced SL to the level of Wakefield and are in the process of reducing British RL to the level of France.

Can't argue with any of that. Hence the comparison with where we were in the 70s. We need new leadership in the game to stop the rot. Unfortunately Ralph has Huddersfield Sheffield Giants on his CV and not much else.

Re: Expansion of RL & French Teams : Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:47 pm  

I see it a little differently I think...

With the razzmatazz of SL came a wider TV audience and a bigger buzz. To the extent of the Bulls shirt on my back being recognised by a very well heeled family from Surrey whilst on holiday.

The game failed to capitalise and interest was lost. No matter how you dress it up RL is not aspirational in the eyes of the public. Union is, definitely, it's the tory party to our Labour, One's dour, lost and too busy in fighting whilst the other pretends to be for everyone and can cover up the fact it's second rate with media attention telling the public it's what they really want.

Having a couple of French teams might add some glamour, whether we like it or not, so may get more people interested, if it doesn't what have we lost? Nothing, but if it piques the interest of the public it may just help shift the dour, northern, dying game image all other sport are happy for us to carry. Does Sebastian in Surrey want to watch Catalans v Toulouse or Fev v Oldham?

Lets face it there is less and less money up here so...

Re: Expansion of RL & French Teams : Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:32 am  

https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/sport/ru ... dium=email

https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/sport/ru ... dium=email

[Bullseye]

Re: Expansion of RL & French Teams : Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:39 am  

Yeah I saw that. The lack of away fans seems to be the main gripe amongst some. Can't help but think that these clubs need to do more to maximise income generating opportunities outside the gate receipts. There are a few English SL clubs that bring a paltry amount of away fans but I don't see many asking for the likes of Salford and Hudders to be given the chop. I know many clubs are living hand to mouth but I fear short term thinking won't help.

I remember when we went from average gates of 4k to average gates of 13-14k. A lot of that was down to Peter Deakin attracting a new audience. It's not impossible. Sure, having a successful team helps but I remember when we won the league two seasons running in 79/80 and 80/81 the crowds never got to a five figure average - not close.

As for the moan about the cost of travelling to France for an away game the two French clubs do that every other week without complaint.