[Bulliac]

Re: Forwarded!!! : Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:29 pm  

tigertot wrote:

I disagree completely. Players will always play to the very limit of whatever laws are in place. All teams know what the rules of the game are & what the current interpretations are. There are very few naïve or deliberate transgressions that go unpunished, nowhere near enough to remotely spoil the game.

To be honest, I disagree completely.

Players are professionals. They break, or go to the limits of, whatever the rules [or interpretations] are, simply because they perceive there is an advantage to be gained from doing so. I have to say you have a different opinion of what constitutes 'very few' than I do as, in general, I see several [I've probably got a different interpretation of the word 'several' than you ] in virtually every game.

You may say it doesn't matter whether the ball is played properly or not, but I say if it doesn't matter, then we may as well do it properly - it's funny how the little tots at half time seem to do it better than the pros...I wonder at what age is doing it correctly coached out of them.

Same with forward passes - they are coached to play to the line and clearly feel safe enough to think that, if it is a bit mistimed, they'll probably get away with it. Which both sides did, more often than is good for the game, last Friday at Odsal. Penalise each offence and they'll take more care, they're professionals, that's what they do. And, you won't have lots of penalties - tell the players and coaches what is expected, and how it is going to be policed, and you'll have lots of players doing it properly . everyone happy!

Re: Forwarded!!! : Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:33 pm  

The thing that I really don't understand about the PTB is why we play to a different procedure than is specified in the laws. Which state that the ball shall be placed on the ground*

The problem only exists because officials ignore the flagrant breach ogf this simple and basic rule, and instead, allow the ball to be rolled backwards. The rules do not permit this, plain and simple. Propelling the ball behind you is not "placing" it.

We then are told that the refs have been told to interpret the PTB rule in a way that as long as the player has made "a genuine effort" to play the ball with the foot, let it go. And it is this that leads to the ridiculous spectacle of a player lifting a boot as he whangs the ball back to his teammate, making a laughable cursory waft at the ball or even no effort at al, yet play goes on, and his team gets the major advantage.

What should happen is, ball placed on ground as per rule. If the player then made his "genuine attempt", the ball wouldn't move.

The immediate and miraculous effect would be that suddenly all players would manage to play the ball with their foot.



* the rule actually says "place or drop" but the refs ignore the second part and if you drop the ball to the ground they automatically call it a knock-on

Re: Forwarded!!! : Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:45 pm  

I have made my point previously but agree that as the RFL continue to change the rules each season in an effort to speed up the game (especially for Sky viewers), referees allowing the ridiculous throwing the ball to the receiver in the play the ball! Forward passes which result in tries when our friends on SKY often comment "that pass looked a little forward", the game is moving closer towards American Football.

Re: Forwarded!!! : Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:41 am  

Bulliac wrote:

To be honest, I disagree completely.

Players are professionals. They break, or go to the limits of, whatever the rules [or interpretations] are, simply because they perceive there is an advantage to be gained from doing so. I have to say you have a different opinion of what constitutes 'very few' than I do as, in general, I see several [I've probably got a different interpretation of the word 'several' than you ] in virtually every game.

You may say it doesn't matter whether the ball is played properly or not, but I say if it doesn't matter, then we may as well do it properly - it's funny how the little tots at half time seem to do it better than the pros...I wonder at what age is doing it correctly coached out of them.

Same with forward passes - they are coached to play to the line and clearly feel safe enough to think that, if it is a bit mistimed, they'll probably get away with it. Which both sides did, more often than is good for the game, last Friday at Odsal. Penalise each offence and they'll take more care, they're professionals, that's what they do. And, you won't have lots of penalties - tell the players and coaches what is expected, and how it is going to be policed, and you'll have lots of players doing it properly . everyone happy!

You are missing my point. The PTB & flat passes are not infringements of the current interpretations of the rules. There are virtually no forward passes that players get away with, irrespective of the screams from the Sky commentary box. 1 or 2 in a game generally. I see no real need to change the PTB, it wasn’t a great effort just needed a bit of technique. But they did &, personally I couldn’t give a monkeys as someone at least makes the effort to lift his leg. For the enjoyment of the game & giving an advantage it is almost irrelevant.
If the pass rule was reverted to having to go back we would end up exactly where we are now. With cries that it was 2 yards flat not backwards. Players will be coached to pass as near to flat as possible. Again it is hardly an issue that spoils a game IMO. There are far more errors from players that contribute to defeat in every game than any marginal decisions from officials.

[Bullseye]

Re: Forwarded!!! : Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:25 am  

Not sure if anyone’s watched much NRL this season but they have cleaned up their PTB and speeded up the game without it turning into a succession of dummy half scoots. It’s do-able.

The time taken wrestling and messing about is much lower and the game is better as a result. The PTB over here has become too important in my opinion and the tricks employed by players to gain an advantage there are detracting from the more aesthetically pleasing parts of the game.

They have some rules that we’ll definitely see over hear soon like penalising the third man in the tackle if he tackles at the knees or below, compulsory substituting concussed players and 7 tackles from 20m taps when the opposition kicked the ball dead.

Re: Forwarded!!! : Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:44 am  

Bullseye wrote:

Not sure if anyone’s watched much NRL this season but they have cleaned up their PTB and speeded up the game without it turning into a succession of dummy half scoots. It’s do-able.

The time taken wrestling and messing about is much lower and the game is better as a result.

Exactly. And any one of our teams playing the way they do would be penalised to death under Aus rules.

Bullseye wrote:

The PTB over here has become too important in my opinion and the tricks employed by players to gain an advantage there are detracting from the more aesthetically pleasing parts of the game.

Exactly. In fact you can easily see, - if you look for it - the tactics that have spread like wildfire, and because everyone is doing it, some much better than others but everyone, we and the refs just let it go.

I am sick of seeing the tackled player make an extra 2 or 3 meters as he regains his feet. What happened to playing the ball on the mark? I am sick of seeing the player levering himself up with one hand, crouched, while whanging the ball under his rising foot to the acting half back who makes many yards scooting as the defence is not set, and the marker is helpless since as the AHB scots past him, the tackled player is 'accidentally' stumbling into collision with him.

Bullseye wrote:

They have some rules that we’ll definitely see over hear soon like penalising the third man in the tackle if he tackles at the knees or below, compulsory substituting concussed players and 7 tackles from 20m taps when the opposition kicked the ball dead.

Leaving aside the odd question of wtf the RFL and the ARL can't sit down each close season and decide a joint policy, which must be simultaneously the biggest embarrassment of governance in any international sport, and an enormous finger raised to northern hemisphere rugby league, I watch the NRL and the PTB there seems easy enough for the refs to police extremely consistently without all this performance. You don't really notice their PTB; you kind of know what to expect and you find yourself being able to instinctively tell when a penalty is going to be called.

It just looks so clean, all the more so if you then watch one of our games back to back.

Re: Forwarded!!! : Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:18 am  

Bullseye wrote:

Not sure if anyone’s watched much NRL this season but they have cleaned up their PTB and speeded up the game without it turning into a succession of dummy half scoots. It’s do-able.

The time taken wrestling and messing about is much lower and the game is better as a result. The PTB over here has become too important in my opinion and the tricks employed by players to gain an advantage there are detracting from the more aesthetically pleasing parts of the game.

They have some rules that we’ll definitely see over hear soon like penalising the third man in the tackle if he tackles at the knees or below, compulsory substituting concussed players and 7 tackles from 20m taps when the opposition kicked the ball dead.

Sadly I never get the chance, but when I used to the game always seemed far more clinical & clean, not necessarily more enjoyable. Obviously there is advantage in the defending team holding the attacker up as long as possible to enable the defence to set. If an attacker can exploit that & get a quick PTB then all credit to him. As long as both feet are on the ground I'm happy with it; I couldn't give a hoot if he still has a hand on the ground.

Re: Forwarded!!! : Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:04 am  

tigertot wrote:

...I couldn't give a hoot if he still has a hand on the ground.

And that's your choice except that then he hasn't (obviously) "regained his feet" which inconveniently the rules do not allow. So it's not a question of interpretation, it is blatantly against the specific rules. I believe there already is a sport where the man with the ball doesn't even need to try to get up, he just has to release the ball and someone else can take over. Maybe we should try that?

My beef with these illegal PTBs is mainly that the rules also require the defence to retreat the 10, and if these quick but plainly illegal PTBs are allowed then frequently the defence hasn't retired and some players are taken out of the game by the illegal PTB, and in many other cases the defence is still on the back foot, each situation giving the attacking team an unfair and considerable advantage.

[Bulliac]

Re: Forwarded!!! : Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:51 am  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

We then are told that the refs have been told to interpret the PTB rule in a way that as long as the player has made "a genuine effort" to play the ball with the foot, let it go. And it is this that leads to the ridiculous spectacle of a player lifting a boot as he whangs the ball back to his teammate, making a laughable cursory waft at the ball or even no effort at al, yet play goes on, and his team gets the major advantage.

What should happen is, ball placed on ground as per rule. If the player then made his "genuine attempt", the ball wouldn't move.

The immediate and miraculous effect would be that suddenly all players would manage to play the ball with their foot.



* the rule actually says "place or drop" but the refs ignore the second part and if you drop the ball to the ground they automatically call it a knock-on

Exactly! A further point would be that if a professional player made a GENUINE attempt to touch the ball with his foot he'd surely do it 99 times out of a hundred, or he wouldn't be fit to call a professional.

My real beef is with the laws of the game though; if there is a general wish to speed up the game by throwing the ball back between the legs and allowing forward passes, then the laws should reflect this common desire. You can't have a situation, as now, where the refs allow one thing and the laws, quite distinctly, say something quite different - it would make the game a joke and disgrace..

Re: Forwarded!!! : Tue Apr 15, 2014 11:09 am  

Bulliac wrote:

Exactly! A further point would be that if a professional player made a GENUINE attempt to touch the ball with his foot he'd surely do it 99 times out of a hundred, or he wouldn't be fit to call a professional.

My real beef is with the laws of the game though; if there is a general wish to speed up the game by throwing the ball back between the legs and allowing forward passes, then the laws should reflect this common desire. You can't have a situation, as now, where the refs allow one thing and the laws, quite distinctly, say something quite different - it would make the game a joke and disgrace..

This.

And I would only add that, IF the top of the RFL's list was to some day beat the Aussies and be World Champs, then we are putting our players at an even greater disadvantage by instilling in them techniques that simply will not be tolerated on the international stage. Why doesn't the penny drop that the NRL is appreciably faster and cleaner than ours - yet with the PTB properly enforced?