Re: Toronto Wolfpack 2017 : Mon May 02, 2016 1:34 pm  

Think you are underestimating the impact of that kind of switch. Not read all of these (not quite that sad!) but the abstracts do suggest it is not bollox to factor in the jetlag. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1756080/pdf/v032p00101.pdf Klein and Wegmann calculated that three days were needed to resynchronise psychomotor performance rhythms after a westward flight from Germany to the United States, whereas eight days were required for the reverse direction. You are right about it being harder coming back the other way. Some interesting stuff here too: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3435929/ Does say athletes and 18-25 year olds are less affected, but the NFL study does also point to some impact on team performances depending on who travelled where and what time the game was at. This was a comparison of results vs bookies odds though... There is a difference in metabolic activity between 3pm and 8pm that effects performance, generally people have higher metabolic rates at 3pm (although not everyone is the same). Normally teams would be at the same point as each other though, and therefore it has less impact on the result, but this would not be the case if one of them has crossed timezones to play. Impact would depend on the kick off time c.f. the time your body thinks it is.

Think you are underestimating the impact of that kind of switch. Not read all of these (not quite that sad!) but the abstracts do suggest it is not bollox to factor in the jetlag. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1756080/pdf/v032p00101.pdf Klein and Wegmann calculated that three days were needed to resynchronise psychomotor performance rhythms after a westward flight from Germany to the United States, whereas eight days were required for the reverse direction. You are right about it being harder coming back the other way. Some interesting stuff here too: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3435929/ Does say athletes and 18-25 year olds are less affected, but the NFL study does also point to some impact on team performances depending on who travelled where and what time the game was at. This was a comparison of results vs bookies odds though... There is a difference in metabolic activity between 3pm and 8pm that effects performance, generally people have higher metabolic rates at 3pm (although not everyone is the same). Normally teams would be at the same point as each other though, and therefore it has less impact on the result, but this would not be the case if one of them has crossed timezones to play. Impact would depend on the kick off time c.f. the time your body thinks it is.

Re: Toronto Wolfpack 2017 : Mon May 02, 2016 2:43 pm  

So you're saying that teams kicking off in the evening are effectively playing just as if they were jet-lagged?

Sorry - that really is nonsensical. We even play the GF in the evening, and I haven't noticed groggy players struggling to perform.
Or maybe.. hang on.. Sinfield and that kick...

Re: Toronto Wolfpack 2017 : Mon May 02, 2016 3:07 pm  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

So you're saying that teams kicking off in the evening are effectively playing just as if they were jet-lagged?

That is not what I am saying. You had said previously that there is no difference between playing a game at 3pm and 8pm for the players. I am saying there is, in that in general a persons metabolic rate, and therefore their performance at high levels of activity are reduced at 8pm compared to 3pm.

It is not a question of people being groggy or falling asleep on the pitch (or not taking the 2!), but in the margins of players reactions and stamina.

For example, you could have an 8pm kick off local time. One team is playing at the reduced 8pm level and the other is playing like it is 3pm. This is the example in the NFL study, which suggested it can have an impact on the result where the teams are closely matched.

Anyway, you wait until we have Toronto away on a Sunday followed by Leigh the following Friday - you will be complaining along with the rest of us

Re: Toronto Wolfpack 2017 : Mon May 02, 2016 7:18 pm  

Point me to a single piece of evidence proving that a player will perform better at 3pm than he can at 8pm, then. There is no physiological reason whatsoever.

Re: Toronto Wolfpack 2017 : Mon May 02, 2016 8:49 pm  

Evidence is hardly in short supply for that. Time difference due to distance travelled is direcrly related to performance. You are best able to perform tasks at the time of day that you normally perform those tasks, and your body will respond differently to different kinds of exertion at different times of day. Of course that's true. Circadian rhythm is hardly new. All possible contributing factors to the measured phenomenon. These are win percentages for travelling NFL teams 2000+ miles - 39.8% 1,000-1,999 miles - 40.3% 0-999 miles - 43.0% It's a real thing. You can call it a failing in the players if you want, or you can acknowledge and prepare for it. I have a preferred strategy.

Evidence is hardly in short supply for that. Time difference due to distance travelled is direcrly related to performance. You are best able to perform tasks at the time of day that you normally perform those tasks, and your body will respond differently to different kinds of exertion at different times of day. Of course that's true. Circadian rhythm is hardly new. All possible contributing factors to the measured phenomenon. These are win percentages for travelling NFL teams 2000+ miles - 39.8% 1,000-1,999 miles - 40.3% 0-999 miles - 43.0% It's a real thing. You can call it a failing in the players if you want, or you can acknowledge and prepare for it. I have a preferred strategy.

Re: Toronto Wolfpack 2017 : Mon May 02, 2016 10:44 pm  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

Point me to a single piece of evidence proving that a player will perform better at 3pm than he can at 8pm, then. There is no physiological reason whatsoever.

Bless, "ooohhh I love Toronto Invaders" hope it fails BIG TIME !

Re: Toronto Wolfpack 2017 : Tue May 03, 2016 9:59 am  

vbfg wrote: Evidence is hardly in short supply for that. Time difference due to distance travelled is direcrly related to performance. You are best able to perform tasks at the time of day that you normally perform those tasks, and your body will respond differently to different kinds of exertion at different times of day. Of course that's true. Circadian rhythm is hardly new. All possible contributing factors to the measured phenomenon. These are win percentages for travelling NFL teams 2000+ miles - 39.8% 1,000-1,999 miles - 40.3% 0-999 miles - 43.0% It's a real thing. You can call it a failing in the players if you want, or you can acknowledge and prepare for it. I have a preferred strategy. I wouldn't call it a failing in the players at all. Of the above, though, I would suggest it's far more likely that the stress of travelling is a hundred times more relevant to performance than any "jet lag". Everyone who's been on a plane or bus for hours knows it takes it out of you, and the factors I'd suspect would be most important are first, travelling is very tiring. you're tired after a long journey. It's not immediately logical, as you've spent hours sat on your arris doing nothing, but we all know it is very tiring. Next, stiffening up through being largely immobile; also, breathing in unnatural, recirculated/filtered air; and the soporific effect of travel where it often eventually puts you to sleep regardless of time of day and how tired you were or weren't when you started. If you can produce research that identifies how much of the small performance difference relates to circadian rhythms as opposed to those sort of obvious factors, I'd like to see it. When I travel to Benidorm, I'm knackered when I get there but the time difference is only 1 hour and so I don't think jet lag is involved at all.

vbfg wrote: Evidence is hardly in short supply for that. Time difference due to distance travelled is direcrly related to performance. You are best able to perform tasks at the time of day that you normally perform those tasks, and your body will respond differently to different kinds of exertion at different times of day. Of course that's true. Circadian rhythm is hardly new. All possible contributing factors to the measured phenomenon. These are win percentages for travelling NFL teams 2000+ miles - 39.8% 1,000-1,999 miles - 40.3% 0-999 miles - 43.0% It's a real thing. You can call it a failing in the players if you want, or you can acknowledge and prepare for it. I have a preferred strategy. I wouldn't call it a failing in the players at all. Of the above, though, I would suggest it's far more likely that the stress of travelling is a hundred times more relevant to performance than any "jet lag". Everyone who's been on a plane or bus for hours knows it takes it out of you, and the factors I'd suspect would be most important are first, travelling is very tiring. you're tired after a long journey. It's not immediately logical, as you've spent hours sat on your arris doing nothing, but we all know it is very tiring. Next, stiffening up through being largely immobile; also, breathing in unnatural, recirculated/filtered air; and the soporific effect of travel where it often eventually puts you to sleep regardless of time of day and how tired you were or weren't when you started. If you can produce research that identifies how much of the small performance difference relates to circadian rhythms as opposed to those sort of obvious factors, I'd like to see it. When I travel to Benidorm, I'm knackered when I get there but the time difference is only 1 hour and so I don't think jet lag is involved at all.

Re: Toronto Wolfpack 2017 : Tue May 03, 2016 10:15 am  

I'm sure it's true that most travelling teams get off the plane, get straight into their kits and go out and try to do the business. Just like you with your Benidorm speedos.

They're not there for up to a week whilst still producing the measured effect.

Re: Toronto Wolfpack 2017 : Tue May 03, 2016 11:32 am  

vbfg wrote:

I'm sure it's true that most travelling teams get off the plane, get straight into their kits and go out and try to do the business. Just like you with your Benidorm speedos.

They're not there for up to a week whilst still producing the measured effect.

I'm usually in benidorm for a week. Takes around 3 days to get completely de-stressed, and the day I wake up after we have travelled back, I get up feeling fscking great.

On either the Tuesday in Benidorm, or the Sunday I get back, I'd beat Warrington on my own.

Re: Toronto Wolfpack 2017 : Tue May 03, 2016 11:47 am  

How good you feel standing around in speedos with your hands on your hips is not my preferred yardstick.