Re: O/T - General Election : Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:18 am  

For me the referendum was about freedom and actually voting for the politicians that make the rules we live our lives by might be a novel concept, but it's one I was prepared to believe in!

Whilst I appreciate that the nation's younger demographic voted to remain it's a real shame that they lack the confidence and vision to determine their own place in the world and future in it.

Fortune favours the brave....

Re: O/T - General Election : Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:36 am  

woolly07 wrote:

Y the way people are turning against the establishment.

This election is all about the establishment. The racist, xenophobic Brexiteers voted against Europe, despite it having little effect on the Tories destroying health, education, social care & massively increasing disparity between rich & poor. The Tories are the establishment, a public school ruling elite with a core who have a hatred of public bodies such as the NHS & state schools, who think it is their divine right to rule & control. This is the establishment people are voting for, an elite with absolutely no connection to the average working person. The EU was anti-establishment in some ways in that it strengthened workers' rights, health & the environment. If people really cared about democracy they would be arguing for devolution to regions in a federal way, similar to Germany.

Re: O/T - General Election : Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:30 am  

tigertot wrote:

This election is all about the establishment. The racist, xenophobic Brexiteers voted against Europe, despite it having little effect on the Tories destroying health, education, social care & massively increasing disparity between rich & poor. The Tories are the establishment, a public school ruling elite with a core who have a hatred of public bodies such as the NHS & state schools, who think it is their divine right to rule & control. This is the establishment people are voting for, an elite with absolutely no connection to the average working person. The EU was anti-establishment in some ways in that it strengthened workers' rights, health & the environment. If people really cared about democracy they would be arguing for devolution to regions in a federal way, similar to Germany.

So you have just called 17.3 million people racists because you don't agree with them.
It is clear that you can not take part in a reasonable debate without insulting people.
If you class yourself as a sensible and reasonable adult you should be ashamed of yourself.

To the moderator. This is the danger of this type of thread. It should now be closed as this above poster has become abusive. Everyone has the right to their opinion but they should not be abusive to others.

[Bulliac]

Re: O/T - General Election : Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:39 am  

woolly07 wrote:

You are making an assumption that France and a couple of others will still be members themselves in 10 years.
I wouldn't bet on it.
We probably have more chance of being world club champions again in 10 years than the EU still having the same number of members with the way people are turning against the establishment.

This, much as they like to present it in those terms, isn't turning against the establishment though, Farage, Le Pen and all the others represent the far right of that establishment - they are not separate from it . Their major wish is to further the cause of the haves vis-a-vis the have nots by ending all social and environmental controls.

If you like the idea of no H&S at work, no fall-back social security, zero hours contracts, NHS paid by insurance premiums, companies being above the law (and if we get TTIP, American corporations will be making our laws) and workers having no representation and fracking in your back garden then by all means vote for them. I hope I'm dead before it comes to pass though.

Re: O/T - General Election : Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:39 am  

Frank Whitcombe wrote:

Fortune favours the brave....

Unfortunately, in the Brexit election & the trump election, it has become increasingly obvious that fortune favours the politicians who can lie the most effectively.

Re: O/T - General Election : Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:44 am  

woolly07 wrote:

So you have just called 17.3 million people racists because you don't agree with them.
It is clear that you can not take part in a reasonable debate without insulting people.
If you class yourself as a sensible and reasonable adult you should be ashamed of yourself.

To the moderator. This is the danger of this type of thread. It should now be closed as this above poster has become abusive. Everyone has the right to their opinion but they should not be abusive to others.

Sadly your post slips into what has become standard social media yah boo sucks insult trading and professional outrage. In fact, tigertot simply said that "The racist, xenophobic Brexiteers voted against..." which they did, as has been more than amply evidenced by their reaction to the result. He did not say nor imply that all Brexiteers are racist or xenophobic.

Re: O/T - General Election : Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:52 am  

Bulliac wrote:

...

If you like the idea of no H&S at work, no fall-back social security, zero hours contracts, NHS paid by insurance premiums, companies being above the law (and if we get TTIP, American corporations will be making our laws) and workers having no representation and fracking in your back garden then by all means vote for them. I hope I'm dead before it comes to pass though.

Above their inbuilt desire to do all this though is their desire to have the reins. So, if they had reason to believe that everyone affected by these policies would actually vote, then they'd either have to curb these instincts or else we'd have a fundamentally different election result to that anticipated.

If everyone who fails to vote in any given constituency for once did so, they would decide the outcome in over 50% of places.

But that will never happen.

[Bulliac]

Re: O/T - General Election : Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:53 am  

Highlander wrote:

Unfortunately, in the Brexit election & the trump election, it has become increasingly obvious that fortune favours the politicians who can lie the most effectively.

To be fair, I think that has always been the case, it's just that the lies have had to become bigger to gain traction.

[Bulliac]

Re: O/T - General Election : Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:03 am  

Ferocious Aardvark wrote:

Above their inbuilt desire to do all this though is their desire to have the reins. So, if they had reason to believe that everyone affected by these policies would actually vote, then they'd either have to curb these instincts or else we'd have a fundamentally different election result to that anticipated.

If everyone who fails to vote in any given constituency for once did so, they would decide the outcome in over 50% of places.

But that will never happen.

Sadly, the number of people directly affected, who will vote for them is unbelievable. Working class people who tell me, quite proudly, that they are Tories makes my mind boggle. It's a free election and people vote for who they want, but why anyone would vote against their own best interests baffles me. The rich rarely do, so-called, 'champagne socialists', are very few in number, whilst working class people who vote Conservative must number many millions, or as you say they'd never get in..

Re: O/T - General Election : Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:07 am  

I am sure that the combination of dumbing down and the widespread and sad tendency for people to (a) read nothing longer than a sentence (b) take an interest in little of any importance and (c) the rise in an obsession with trivia has made it very easy for the purveyors of fake news to influence millions. So many on social media nowadays are just hopelessly uninformed and as many are also as gullible as Bempton cliffs, we have the rise to power of the idiot, and the nasty bigmouth.

It's not so much the lies are bigger, their media reach is, as is the expanding potential constituency of morons prepared to swallow them.