: Wed Feb 04, 2009 7:12 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

Needing to put down a £500k bond is hardly the showing of a credible business is it?How could the RFL have told Widnes their bid would fail having not seen theirs or anyone else’s bid? Had they done this, Im sure we would have seen many Widnes fans using this an example of how the RFL was persecuting them

They had to do this because they only had financial records going back 7 months. A unique position, thus a unique necessity to Widnes’ bid that pretty much guaranteed they would not go pop within the 3 year period of the licence. It was, in no way, an indictment on the business plan on the business plan put forward by the club.

SmokeyTA wrote:

The RFL have been fairly open and honest about the need and will for expansion

Of course they have, but you’d have to have faith in the robustness of the licence criteria and the emphasis placed on expansion, an area they denied as being important before it started. Imo CC could not have gained a licence without their bid being judged almost solely on expansion; going by their own criteria and rules. They have the infrastructure and support base of an NL2 club.

SmokeyTA wrote:

So why did they need to add Toulouse if it was all part of this conspiracy? They could just promote Gateshead, or London, or a Scottish/Irish side which enters, and wasn’t the offer of a place to join what was then NL1 made at the same time as the offer of a place to a championship club that meets the criteria?

Because there is no clear benefit to the Championship clubs having Toulouse in their league, except for a free junket for their respective officials. Gateshead don’t have the kind of backer CC have, neither do the other clubs you mentioned. This would make the survival of clubs, with shallow attendance figures and a poor infrastructure, almost solely dependent on the TV money. If CC didn’t have Leighton Samuel, they wouldn’t have got a licence either. I think Toulouse already have a decent infrastructure, with access to modern stadia and players from the French Elite, in an area that, as you say, has been playing the game for as long as Castleford. The RFL now have a direct route to bring in Toulouse to ESL, via the Championship, without having to break any promises about promoting a Championship club. They’ll be able to justify the ESL tag, start to cast off the cloth cap, northern image and have a massive French derby, which may generate even more money for the two French clubs and possibly more interest in the South of France. Why would an organisation, with an expansionist agenda, which sees little future for “small northern clubs” promote a “small northern club” and leave even more “small northern clubs” in SL, when they can leave all the “small northern clubs” in the Championship leagues and even get rid of another one from SL to join them?

SmokeyTA wrote:

But if they are going to 15 they can promote Toulouse, worst comes to the worst they fulfil their promise and make SL go to 16! The problems regarding player pool are much less pronounced when one of the clubs in French who aren’t going to be picking from the UK player pool

Because they simply don’t have to worry about that now. I think that going to 15 will be a last resort, and would only happen if there was absolutely no way there was a current SL club to relegate. The RFL can’t be too sure how things will be, with regards to future TV deals, how competitive a 14 club SL will be, never mind 15 or 16. This way they will only have to promote one club, at most – the one they actually want. The other factor, as V4E has pointed out, will be the testing ground factor the Championship will offer the RFL to assess Toulouse by. It would also help produce a stronger, tested squad that would be able to draw from the federation pool, which includes English players. Just the same as Les Catalans.

SmokeyTA wrote:

transporting 11 sides, once, isnt going to cost a whole lot of money, and certainly not more than the french federation have already been able to pull in selling the TV rights in france

I disagree. I think it will cost one hell of a lot of cash and, once Toulouse are in SL, it will not happen again.

SmokeyTA wrote:

as for amateur players, that really isnt Toulouse's problem, if a club cant raise a side to travel then maybe the second tier of RL isnt for them

Well that’s very nice for TO, I’m sure, but this is a largely semi-pro league. Therefore some clubs may not be able to field a full side and some players may no longer regard playing in the Championship worth their while, particularly these days with employers strapped for cash and labour cut to the bone.

SmokeyTA wrote:

they are more than that, they are generally ill-informed, and do generally make the evidence fit their pre-existing conclusions than look at whats in front of them and make a conclusion from that,

I’ve read many of your turgid posts which seem nothing more than freeform psychosis. They switch this way and that, with double standards applied wherever I look. I’ll leave it at that, Smokey.

SmokeyTA wrote:

you have complained that expansion was put ahead of heartland clubs, but Widnes went bust, the structure they had clearly wasnt working, it obviously and unarguably wasnt sustainable, we couldnt put Widnes in SL with that structure, and it would take an amazingly monumental effort, to put in place a structure that would work, and prove it would work in 7 months,

My point exactly. The RFL told Steve O’Connor that wouldn’t be a problem as long as he had a good business plan and put financial guarantees in place. Therefore, if you look at what you have written there, why accept a bid from such a club, without first telling the club they’ll be wasting £20,000 because they have no chance because they only have 7 months trading, and then accept a bid having told the club only having 7 months trading wasn’t a problem, and then reject that bid because they only have 7 months trading behind them?

That makes no sense to me at all - in fact it’s totally potty and dishonest.

SmokeyTA wrote:

Celtic and Salford already had these things in place, Salford had been in SL for a few years which obviously gave them an advantage, and they were clearly the best club in NL1, Celtic meanwhile have seen nothing but success, what they were doing clearly was working, surely it would have been unfair to put in a club which had proved nothing but failure ahead of two clubs which had seen success,

Some of that is true, but most is just your opinion. There’s nothing wrong with that, but my opinion is different. You have also skirted around an awful lot of other pros and cons that would shed a very different light on the situation.

I only used the way I thought Widnes were treated, at the start of my last post, in order to point out part of the reason I do not trust the RFL. My main point was to address the theme of this thread. That involved trying to assess why I think Toulouse have been placed in the Championship, and thus, what the future holds for them. I was not intending, and do not intend under any circumstance, to go over the same old crap again I accept that the clubs the RFL want in SL are the clubs they will get and that’s probably how it will pan out next time too.

SmokeyTA wrote:

The RFL did exactly the right thing, Widnes now have 3 years to regroup and come back, FWIW i think they will be in in 2012, i think one of Wakefield and Castleford will drop out, and Toulouse and Widnes will go up to make a 15 team league, and in 2015 we will lose 1 more club (probably HKR) and promote a scottish/irish club along with Gateshead/sheffield/skolars.

If the RFL are in a position to promote two teams in 2011, then Widnes will have a very good chance. I’m not ruling it out, but regard it as unlikely. I think SL will remain at 14, with Wakey dropping and Toulouse stepping in. I fully understand why the RFL would find this attractive. I don’t fully agree with all their logic, but I understand it.

: Wed Feb 04, 2009 7:33 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

So why did they need to add Toulouse if it was all part of this conspiracy? They could just promote Gateshead, or London, or a Scottish/Irish side which enters, and wasn’t the offer of a place to join what was then NL1 made at the same time as the offer of a place to a championship club that meets the criteria?

transporting 11 sides, once, isnt going to cost a whole lot of money, and certainly not more than the french federation have already been able to pull in selling the TV rights in france

as for amateur players, that really isnt Toulouse's problem, if a club cant raise a side to travel then maybe the second tier of RL isnt for them


you have complained that expansion was put ahead of heartland clubs,

No the offer to Toulouse was made after the NL clubs had been promised one of them would get a guaranteed place in 2012

10 Side once , 1 Side 10 times

They havent sold anything for any money , not even the Catalans have done that

So what would your opinion been had Celtic not been able to raise a decent side against Leeds this week because of thier poor administration , which looks like it needed RFL intervention to sort out , maybe the top tier of RL isn't for them

He hasn't complained that expansion was put ahead of heartland clubs , he has complained that the RFL dont have the balls to admit it

: Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:04 pm  

Pepe wrote:

They had to do this because they only had financial records going back 7 months. A unique position, thus a unique necessity to Widnes’ bid that pretty much guaranteed they would not go pop within the 3 year period of the licence. It was, in no way, an indictment on the business plan on the business plan put forward by the club.

they had to do this because their business plan clearly didnt have the necessary evidence behind it that others did, and clearly couldnt prove it was sustainable

Of course they have, but you’d have to have faith in the robustness of the licence criteria and the emphasis placed on expansion, an area they denied as being important before it started. Imo CC could not have gained a licence without their bid being judged almost solely on expansion; going by their own criteria and rules. They have the infrastructure and support base of an NL2 club.

thats your opinion, and your welcome to it, but you cant pretend it is based in fact or has anything like conclusive evidence behind it!
Celtic may have the support base of an NL2 club ( they dont their attendance was comparable to most) but they clearly dont have the infrastructure of one, if there is one thing you cant fault them for its their infrastructure

Because there is no clear benefit to the Championship clubs having Toulouse in their league, except for a free junket for their respective officials. Gateshead don’t have the kind of backer CC have, neither do the other clubs you mentioned. This would make the survival of clubs, with shallow attendance figures and a poor infrastructure, almost solely dependent on the TV money. If CC didn’t have Leighton Samuel, they wouldn’t have got a licence either. I think Toulouse already have a decent infrastructure, with access to modern stadia and players from the French Elite, in an area that, as you say, has been playing the game for as long as Castleford. The RFL now have a direct route to bring in Toulouse to ESL, via the Championship, without having to break any promises about promoting a Championship club. They’ll be able to justify the ESL tag, start to cast off the cloth cap, northern image and have a massive French derby, which may generate even more money for the two French clubs and possibly more interest in the South of France. Why would an organisation, with an expansionist agenda, which sees little future for “small northern clubs” promote a “small northern club” and leave even more “small northern clubs” in SL, when they can leave all the “small northern clubs” in the Championship leagues and even get rid of another one from SL to join them?

what a strange argument, there is do clear benefit to having dewsbury in the championship!

and im not sure what this has to do with what i said, which was why the need for the conspiracy of offering a place to the NL1 clubs and bringing toulouse in to take that when there are other expansion clubs to promote from the championship? if the RFL are going to promote Toulouse they can promote them from the Elite, and promote Gateshead/sheffield/london/whoever and still make good on their promise!

Because they simply don’t have to worry about that now. I think that going to 15 will be a last resort, and would only happen if there was absolutely no way there was a current SL club to relegate. The RFL can’t be too sure how things will be, with regards to future TV deals, how competitive a 14 club SL will be, never mind 15 or 16. This way they will only have to promote one club, at most – the one they actually want. The other factor, as V4E has pointed out, will be the testing ground factor the Championship will offer the RFL to assess Toulouse by. It would also help produce a stronger, tested squad that would be able to draw from the federation pool, which includes English players. Just the same as Les Catalans.

how many english players do Les Catalans have? that isnt the point in putting Toulouse or Les Catalans in. When/if promoted i dont think we will see any british players playing for toulouse, so they arent taking from the british player pool! 16 teams would give us a league structure which matches the NRL allowing use to have the seasons co-incide

I disagree. I think it will cost one hell of a lot of cash and, once Toulouse are in SL, it will not happen again.

we have already been told it will happen with Ireland pretty soon, it wont be much cheaper to fly to dublin than to Toulouse, so it will happen again, how much do expect it to cost for 11 teams to fly over to toulouse and play? a fair few amateur teams fly over to france or the french fly here, its not a massive issue

Well that’s very nice for TO, I’m sure, but this is a largely semi-pro league. Therefore some clubs may not be able to field a full side and some players may no longer regard playing in the Championship worth their while, particularly these days with employers strapped for cash and labour cut to the bone.

then the second tier of RL isnt the place for them, if they arent committed enough to fly to the south of france for a couple of days once a season, then they arent committed enough to play at this level, theres plenty of clubs in Championship 1 who they could play for.

My point exactly. The RFL told Steve O’Connor that wouldn’t be a problem as long as he had a good business plan and put financial guarantees in place. Therefore, if you look at what you have written there, why accept a bid from such a club, without first telling the club they’ll be wasting £20,000 because they have no chance because they only have 7 months trading, and then accept a bid having told the club only having 7 months trading wasn’t a problem, and then reject that bid because they only have 7 months trading behind them?
That makes no sense to me at all - in fact it’s totally potty and dishonest.

or, they had the opportunty to prove that they had put these structures in place, and prove they would work, they failed to do this. going bust obviously made it harder, it didnt make it impossible. And again, had the RFL pre-judged Widnes application before seeing it, that would in itself be used by the Widnes fans to pretend they were persecuted

Some of that is true, but most is just your opinion. There’s nothing wrong with that, but my opinion is different. You have also skirted around an awful lot of other pros and cons that would shed a very different light on the situation.

I only used the way I thought Widnes were treated, at the start of my last post, in order to point out part of the reason I do not trust the RFL. My main point was to address the theme of this thread. That involved trying to assess why I think Toulouse have been placed in the Championship, and thus, what the future holds for them. I was not intending, and do not intend under any circumstance, to go over the same old crap again I accept that the clubs the RFL want in SL are the clubs they will get and that’s probably how it will pan out next time too.

and i am showing you this distrust is misplaced

If the RFL are in a position to promote two teams in 2011, then Widnes will have a very good chance. I’m not ruling it out, but regard it as unlikely. I think SL will remain at 14, with Wakey dropping and Toulouse stepping in. I fully understand why the RFL would find this attractive. I don’t fully agree with all their logic, but I understand it.

well then why distrust it if you understand why it is being done?

: Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:07 pm  

Starbug wrote:

No the offer to Toulouse was made after the NL clubs had been promised one of them would get a guaranteed place in 2012

10 Side once , 1 Side 10 times

They havent sold anything for any money , not even the Catalans have done that

no, the french federation have sold the SL rights, and the rights to 5( I think, it may 4) Toulouse games for about $400k

So what would your opinion been had Celtic not been able to raise a decent side against Leeds this week because of thier poor administration , which looks like it needed RFL intervention to sort out , maybe the top tier of RL isn't for them

they would still have been able to raise a side you idiot, are we saying the same for Hudds? Leeds? Sts? or is it purely a stick to beat celtic with?

He hasn't complained that expansion was put ahead of heartland clubs , he has complained that the RFL dont have the balls to admit it

well done on missing the point, that was quite an acheivement

: Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:42 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

no, the french federation have sold the SL rights, and the rights to 5( I think, it may 4) Toulouse games for about $400k





they would still have been able to raise a side you idiot, are we saying the same for Hudds? Leeds? Sts? or is it purely a stick to beat celtic with?

well done on missing the point, that was quite an acheivement

400,000 euro to the French federation which include internationals SL games and 4/5 Toulouse matches

Show me the link where Toulouse get any TV revenue from Orange Tv ?

Or Catalans for that matter ?

I'm sure any NL/Championship club would have been able to ' raise a team ' , but that was not Pepe's point was it you Idiot [ see easy isn't it ]

No point was missed as usual you just pretend to make a point that was never there in the first place

: Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:42 am  

Starbug wrote:

400,000 euro to the French federation which include internationals SL games and 4/5 Toulouse matches

Show me the link where Toulouse get any TV revenue from Orange Tv ?

Or Catalans for that matter ?

read again when you quoted! it specifically says the french federation

I'm sure any NL/Championship club would have been able to ' raise a team ' , but that was not Pepe's point was it you Idiot [ see easy isn't it ]

it wasnt Pepes point it was yours, and an utterly ridiculous one at that! the team they put out, bar the 8 Australians who had visa issues (something that has affected a lot of clubs, but seems to be something we should only criticise celtic for) would still have been better than anything the Championships sides could put out

No point was missed as usual you just pretend to make a point that was never there in the first place

the next sentence or so makes the point, which is difference, thats why you needed to selectively quote only part of a sentence

: Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:07 am  

Starbug wrote:

(player development counting double...) But can the RFL be trusted on that count either ?

And if it is then surely they should announce it now

But they wont , because they cannot as that would give them too many problems next time

I notice you havent found any ' links ' to your claim that the Inclousion of Toulouse has resulted in an increase of SKY funding to the Championships , or to your claim that the Championship clubs recieve any SKY monies at all

Why ? because there is none

For the next round, if we keep the same number of UK clubs or expand will will need to increase player pool to support those clubs under the curent overseas players cap. Any club that does not produce its own players will not survive in SL. I expect that the RFL will make no announcement on this, as it will be a last minute decision with all the facts in hand. But I can't see how any club will make the SL in 2012 if they can't develop their own players - we're short already.

As to a link, more money is being made available to the Championship, there was an announcement on that, which you are as able as me to google for. There is increased televised Championship matches, the money for the Championship clubs comes from the new TV deal. Part of that TV deal is the higher profile of the Championship, of which TO is a part.

: Thu Feb 05, 2009 6:15 pm  

belgianxiii wrote:

For the next round, if we keep the same number of UK clubs or expand will will need to increase player pool to support those clubs under the curent overseas players cap. Any club that does not produce its own players will not survive in SL. I expect that the RFL will make no announcement on this, as it will be a last minute decision with all the facts in hand. But I can't see how any club will make the SL in 2012 if they can't develop their own players - we're short already.

As to a link, more money is being made available to the Championship, there was an announcement on that, which you are as able as me to google for. There is increased televised Championship matches, the money for the Championship clubs comes from the new TV deal. Part of that TV deal is the higher profile of the Championship, of which TO is a part.

Link ?

So the RFL will look at the ' facts to hand ' and then make decision , that sounds suspiciously like ' make the rules suit what we want '

By the way , when you say clubs develop thier own players , do you meant Championship clubs developing Championship players or Championship clubs developing SL players ?

: Fri Mar 13, 2009 3:22 pm  

No chance once again we bend over for foreigners, if Tlouse had started in nl2 and worked up that would have been acceptable a bit but all nl2 clubs rejected them so nl1 teams showed how lily livered they are.

: Sat Mar 14, 2009 11:33 am  

Silent but deadly wrote:

No chance once again we bend over for foreigners, if Tlouse had started in nl2 and worked up that would have been acceptable a bit but all nl2 clubs rejected them so nl1 teams showed how lily livered they are.

So:
- If they are included straight into SL it's unfair because they bypass the Championship.
- If they start in the Championship it's unfair because they bypass Championship1 AND it's too expensive for the other clubs to play them.
- If they start in Championship1 it's too expensive for the clubs to play them.

I suggest you either:
- Figure out a way to include a French club into the higher division which avoids the above problems.
or
- Admit that no matter how it happens you will be opposed to it.