Re: The Nadir of English Rugby League : Wed Nov 16, 2022 2:40 pm  

Bullseye wrote:

Where's the evidence that existing owners can or will spend more if caps are removed? Where's the evidence that there are people out there waiting for the cap to be removed before they get involved?

Unless there is evidence for that what's the case for removing the cap? We might manage to get the odd signing from union?

Well football is a good example , Boxing , NFL , Golf etc . I dont think its a coincidence that RU is getting better at the same time RL is getting worse and one reason might be is that they have a higher cap . Maybe the likes of Koukash would invest in Man UTD if they had a stingy salary cap , but this doesn't really tell us anything about the quality or vision of the current investors compared to future bigger minded investors who would come . On the whole crowds are dropping as well. A teams no longer exist like they used too , when i was in school I used to go watching Wigans A team games and they would regularly draw over 1500 people.

If the Premier league had a salary cap , do you think we would see Haaland playing over here ? Among many other 'superstars' .

Basically we have accepted that our chairmen are far too stupid to make business decisions , take risks and make investments , have a bigger pool of players , better competition for players in teams , most fans have also accepted that its bad for the sport that a team could have big investor who might spend a lot of money assembling a really good team and we need to share out the decent players among the teams so everyone is equally poor , along with players with short careers they also need to remain poor .

If your parents don't have deep pockets and a lot of time on your hands then you have way less chance of making it in RL , if there are any juniors who had a choice of playing football even in the 2nd division fro a financial pov choosing rugby is the wrong decision .

Re: The Nadir of English Rugby League : Wed Nov 16, 2022 2:57 pm  

I think sky has created a 12 club showpiece league & marginalised all the other clubs. I think the way things are now has made a lot of lower division supporters lose interest in the game ,both the league & Challenge Cup.
Wigan did help to drag the game ,kicking & screaming ,into becoming a professional sport but some of the standards we see now are not much better than when players had full time jobs & were paid winning & losing money.

[Bullseye]

Re: The Nadir of English Rugby League : Wed Nov 16, 2022 4:21 pm  

The game's problems have all been rooted in a lack of money in the sport and the reasons for that are complex. Removing the salary cap isn't going to solve all the problems and may have some unintended consequences.

Rugby union is hardly a picture of financial health and probity - having a higher cap hasn't stopped two top flight clubs from going out of business. The real problem is that there isn't enough money, fullstop.

Football outside the premier league isn't much better.

Re: The Nadir of English Rugby League : Wed Nov 16, 2022 11:05 pm  

Saddened! wrote:

Saddened! wrote:

The cap needs to stay unfortunately,....

In what way is it unfortunate?

RFL wrote:

The core objectives of the Salary Cap are:

To ensure that the competitions remains (sic) competitive and therefore attractive to spectators and commercial partners by preventing Clubs with greater financial resources dominating the competition and by ensuring a balanced spread of players among clubs…..

Aaaah! “Unfortunate” for a St Helens fan and for St Helens’ hegemony. Then again, the dispensations on the cap (especially distribution of prize money amongst players not counting to said cap, likewise club bonuses paid to its players for International appearances) are surely a help to top teams regarding staying on top. Rather flies in the face of the above “core objective”. The whole system needs modifying.

Saddened! wrote:

.....but in a modified form….

Well, well! We seem to be singing from the same hymn sheet. You have Bongser’s attention, Saddened. Please do go on.

Saddened! wrote:

......Something like your own youth players don't count on the cap at all…..

Hmmm. Different hymn sheets after all. Yours is taken from the Gospel according to a certain Saint Helen! Saints already have an established Academy that, along with the one at Wigan, has been vacuuming up most of the talent that would be available to neighbouring clubs that have been arbitrarily forbidden a first class Academy.

Saddened! wrote:

.....All French players (don't count on the cap at all) for Catalans….

Why the different rules for the French? Because “Eight Out of Ten Cats” prefer that? If the whole Perpignan/Toulouse experiment has utterly failed to grow the game in France, which it has, that should be acknowledged and the Cats put down!

Saddened! wrote:

....five marquee players that you can pay as much as you like, of which three can be overseas players….

Five and three? Please “show your working”. It is to be presumed that you have put a lot of consideration into coming up with those figures so please share those thoughts with us. Funny, it seems like two minutes since Koukash first mooted each club being allowed ONE marquee signing and was roundly pooh-poohed until the chairmen of the richer clubs saw that it would benefit them more than others. (Leigh) Leopards may not be able to change their spots but it seems Plaster Saints can!

Will the sea in “overseas” include La Manche?

Saddened! wrote:

....Maximum of 28 senior players, with the remaining players capped at £2m….

First of all, define “senior”. Leigh fielded 30 different players in last season’s Championship. Bongser would argue that, should a player represent a club in a competitive fixture they are a senior player regardless of whether or not they are on (short or long term) loan from elsewhere. If you are advocating clubs only being allowed to field a set number of players in any given season then, again, please tell us your rationale for that limit being 28.

£2M? Will the nominal £150K per marquee player be deducted from that figure or not? £1.25M still gives a lot of wriggle room if home grown players are valued within the cap as zilch!

Saddened! wrote:

....That way clubs are incentivised to produce their own players (All clubs mandated to have academies), they can keep their own players once they've developed them….

You’re trying (and failing) to play the Enlightened Despot! You know full well that it will take years for newly mandated academies to bear fruit. During the interim the established clubs will be able to continue their dominance.

Saddened! wrote:

....the big clubs wouldn't be able to stockpile players….

Yes they will, especially under your proposals.

Saddened! wrote:

....It'd bring an element of survival of the richest back into the sport….

See above:

IT IS ALREADY THERE AND CLUBS LIKE SAINTS HAVE BEEN MILKING THE SYSTEM FOR YEARS!!

However, the existing system preserves “Old Gold” and prevents the nouveaux riches from flowering in Super League. The established clubs make the rules….

Saddened! wrote:

....which isn't really a bad thing.

The RFL wrote:

....The core objectives of the Salary Cap are (also)
To prevent Clubs trading beyond their means and/or entering into damaging and unsustainable financial arrangements….

What the heck happened at Bradford Bulls? Yes the Cap System needs modifying. “Finite” should mean FINITE - no exemptions, no dispensations! It may then serve the purpose that it is meant to serve.

Super League has been a flawed product for a good while, not because of The Cap but due to its codicils. The only interesting season in recent years was when Castleford “did a Leicester City” (no, Bongser does not wish to see anyone present The Super League Show in their underwear!) SL even had The Tigers covered due to the idiocy of the playoffs. SkY introduced the system, SkY are paying less to RL; SkY should have less say in RL.

Re: The Nadir of English Rugby League : Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:53 am  

ninearches wrote:

I think sky has created a 12 club showpiece league & marginalised all the other clubs. I think the way things are now has made a lot of lower division supporters lose interest in the game ,both the league & Challenge Cup.
Wigan did help to drag the game ,kicking & screaming ,into becoming a professional sport but some of the standards we see now are not much better than when players had full time jobs & were paid winning & losing money.

What standards would you point too that are higher now ? I would say the grounds are better , maybe the safety and medical protocols on the pitch but I can't think of many more . But your right Sky have tried to create a 12 club showpiece but its kind of a boys clubs where we would absolutely favour the catalans over the likes of Leigh , Bradford and Sheffield . The later who won the CC and then was destroyed by the RFL to create a franchise system, that benefited nobody . I am not suggesting players go back to getting jobs and playing part time , that would be there personal decision , if they removed the cap they wouldn't suddenly pay every player a fortune , they would probably carry on as they are right now , but then start increasing there spend/risk to poach the right player and other clubs would do the same and the market would adjust over time , ultimately we need more bums on seats ( at games , not on TV) we need more superstars/personalities and I think we have steadily moved in the wrong direction

Re: The Nadir of English Rugby League : Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:55 pm  

Bent&Bongser wrote:

What the heck happened at Bradford Bulls? Yes the Cap System needs modifying. “Finite” should mean FINITE - no exemptions, no dispensations! It may then serve the purpose that it is meant to serve.

Super League has been a flawed product for a good while, not because of The Cap but due to its codicils. The only interesting season in recent years was when Castleford “did a Leicester City” (no, Bongser does not wish to see anyone present The Super League Show in their underwear!) SL even had The Tigers covered due to the idiocy of the playoffs. SkY introduced the system, SkY are paying less to RL; SkY should have less say in RL.

You seem to have picked my idea apart on the basis that Saints would benefit. Saints would benefit from the status quo and from that and from pretty much any other situation you bring up. Saints aren't successful because they've played the rules or manipulated them. Saints are just better than everyone else. Better at identifying talent, better at developing it and better at coaching it. There's absolutely nothing stopping the other clubs matching Saints. You'd have to ask Wigan, Warrington, Huddersfield, Hull, Leeds etc why they aren't doing what Saints have done. Having exemptions for your own produced players is important in the cap I think as it encourages clubs to develop talent. You are right it would benefit clubs like Saints, Wigan, Warrington and Leeds in the short term, but those are the clubs you want clubs to aspire to be like, or better than. What do you want to happen exactly? Clubs get a flat cap with no exemptions so they can sign players other clubs produced and so the competition just declines in quality each year? Which would benefit clubs like Leigh Surely we want more clubs like Saints and Wigan? Don't we?

Re: The Nadir of English Rugby League : Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:37 pm  

Before replying, Bongser would ask you (good evening Saddened! How are you? Well it is to be hoped) to answer some of the direct questions in yours truly's post prior to us accepting that your previous post indeed contained a genuine "idea".

Re: The Nadir of English Rugby League : Fri Nov 18, 2022 1:23 am  

Saddened! wrote:

You seem to have picked my idea apart on the basis that Saints would benefit. Saints would benefit from the status quo and from that and from pretty much any other situation you bring up. Saints aren't successful because they've played the rules or manipulated them. Saints are just better than everyone else. Better at identifying talent, better at developing it and better at coaching it. There's absolutely nothing stopping the other clubs matching Saints. You'd have to ask Wigan, Warrington, Huddersfield, Hull, Leeds etc why they aren't doing what Saints have done. Having exemptions for your own produced players is important in the cap I think as it encourages clubs to develop talent. You are right it would benefit clubs like Saints, Wigan, Warrington and Leeds in the short term, but those are the clubs you want clubs to aspire to be like, or better than. What do you want to happen exactly? Clubs get a flat cap with no exemptions so they can sign players other clubs produced and so the competition just declines in quality each year? Which would benefit clubs like Leigh Surely we want more clubs like Saints and Wigan? Don't we?

Without the cap you might see Leigh at the top of the league ( highly doubt it , but its possible) Keighley had potential to be massive 20 years ago but they were massively shafted by the RFL , Sheffield could have carried on the growth . Bradford where run into the ground with a poor declining ground and what happened to them was probably fair , let that be a warning to other clubs not to do the same in future , its only unfair when you compare it to Harlequins , Catalans and the likes of Huddersfield being demotion proof for a good few years , they didn't need it , Sheffield was a bigger cub back then . Some dodgy back handers must have been taking place .

You do hit on good point though , our game is falling apart with youth and talent , but when you have cap in place and people want instant results your going to cut the cloth accordingly . It's becoming a competition where they are trying to remove as much competition as possible, a rigged system where the established top clubs benefit and they are the ones who won't argue to change it , very much like Westminster politics . Scrap the cap and I would also pull away fro Sky , there are many other options now like DAZN , prime , freesports , BT, premier sports . The clubs need to be more responsible for their marketing , there is pretty much zero outside of sky , all Leigh have done is swap a centurion's helmet for a leopard , ridiculous , if I didn't attend a match I would have no idea when the next game was . RL is the most physical game there is and it should be pitched that way , like UFC was, they have characters , stars and no cap and people want to watch successful people , this is human nature wit bread and circus.

Re: The Nadir of English Rugby League : Tue Nov 22, 2022 12:07 pm  

Saddened! wrote:

You seem to have picked my idea apart on the basis that Saints would benefit. Saints would benefit from the status quo and from that and from pretty much any other situation you bring up. Saints aren't successful because they've played the rules or manipulated them. Saints are just better than everyone else. Better at identifying talent, better at developing it and better at coaching it. There's absolutely nothing stopping the other clubs matching Saints. You'd have to ask Wigan, Warrington, Huddersfield, Hull, Leeds etc why they aren't doing what Saints have done. Having exemptions for your own produced players is important in the cap I think as it encourages clubs to develop talent. You are right it would benefit clubs like Saints, Wigan, Warrington and Leeds in the short term, but those are the clubs you want clubs to aspire to be like, or better than. What do you want to happen exactly? Clubs get a flat cap with no exemptions so they can sign players other clubs produced and so the competition just declines in quality each year? Which would benefit clubs like Leigh Surely we want more clubs like Saints and Wigan? Don't we?

Nothing prevents other clubs from copying the successful model of their strategy. Nothing but money and hubris. Money limits their options, and hubris makes them all-knowing and unwilling to copy someone else's successful strategy model.

Re: The Nadir of English Rugby League : Tue Nov 22, 2022 3:44 pm  

Hmmm. There are other factors in play that contribute to the hegemony of two or three clubs, as you no doubt know.

Hubris? Bongser supports his birth town team (unlike many), a team that has not won serious silverware for four
decades. Perhaps you meant "humous"? Money & humous - it makes as much sense!

Welcome to RLFans, ShawnK. The more the merrier.