Re: Ben Flower : Sun Oct 12, 2014 12:20 am  

The video clip of the second punch is all over the world, on websites that wouldn't normally carry super league coverage, hopefully the RFL will put a well publicised extended ban on Flower to try and regain some of the reputation of our game.

Re: Ben Flower : Sun Oct 12, 2014 12:21 am  

Jesus, enough with the "running 15 yards", he was FOLLOWING PLAY. It is not unknown for people on a rugby field to run.

Re: Ben Flower : Sun Oct 12, 2014 12:21 am  

headhunter wrote:

Nice shot of the 'gentle shove' BTW that good guy Lance ran 15 yards to do.

He wouldn't of been 15 yards behind play had Flower not taken him out in the first place

This is getting silly. The handbags from Lance wouldn't of even been mentioned had the retaliation been so extreme - does that mean Lance was right to do it? No. Does that mean there's was a penalty in it? Probably. Was there anything more had it not escalated? Absolutely not.

There is no justification in the actions of Flower in the 2nd minute of the grand final. Lance could of showed him a photo of shagging his missus and it still wouldn't of been okay,

Re: Ben Flower : Sun Oct 12, 2014 12:21 am  

nottinghamtiger wrote: It would be a good argument to have. For me, it's clear before Flower punches Hohaia that he is on the floor, defenceless and unconscious. Even if it's a matter of seconds, he has time to not throw the punch - he simply cannot claim to be acting in self defence. As a precedent (and because the footage is on Youtube) I'd suggest you look at Joey Barton's conviction. At his trial it was accepted that he was initially acting in self defence, but once the victim was on the floor he chose to continue to attack him. The time period between the punch considered to be in self defence and the first punch considered to be assault was less than a second. This Video is Hosted on Youtube : Users should see the AUP for allowable uses Absolutely no similarities between this and what Flower did.

nottinghamtiger wrote: It would be a good argument to have. For me, it's clear before Flower punches Hohaia that he is on the floor, defenceless and unconscious. Even if it's a matter of seconds, he has time to not throw the punch - he simply cannot claim to be acting in self defence. As a precedent (and because the footage is on Youtube) I'd suggest you look at Joey Barton's conviction. At his trial it was accepted that he was initially acting in self defence, but once the victim was on the floor he chose to continue to attack him. The time period between the punch considered to be in self defence and the first punch considered to be assault was less than a second. This Video is Hosted on Youtube : Users should see the AUP for allowable uses Absolutely no similarities between this and what Flower did.

Re: Ben Flower : Sun Oct 12, 2014 12:22 am  

Jesus, enough with the "running 15 yards", he was FOLLOWING PLAY. It is not unknown for people on a rugby field to run.

Re: Ben Flower : Sun Oct 12, 2014 12:23 am  

headhunter wrote:

No, my defence of the 'Flower instigating' is that it was a strike from behind on a player chasing a kick in the first two minutes of a Grand Final, maybe you don't notice when this never happens multiple times in every single match, I'm sure you wouldn't have noticed if it hadn't indirectly led to a man being sent off, either way it certainly did not warrant Hohaia running 15 yards to smash an instigating Flower in the face.

blah blah blah,

refusing to accept the initial strike by Flower.

Re: Ben Flower : Sun Oct 12, 2014 12:26 am  

Collision LOL. Flower could just run by Hohaia, he's at the side of him.

Re: Ben Flower : Sun Oct 12, 2014 12:28 am  

headhunter wrote: This Video is Hosted on Youtube : Users should see the AUP for allowable uses Absolutely no similarities between this and what Flower did. Actually, there are. The first punch thrown by Barton was accepted by the prosecution as self-defence as the eventual victim approached him in a threatening manner and made verbal threats of violence. However, ONCE THE VICTIM IS INJURED, the following punches are determined to constitute assault and no longer self-defence as the victim poses no threat. Barton had the opportunity to choose not to cause further injury, as did Flower.

headhunter wrote: This Video is Hosted on Youtube : Users should see the AUP for allowable uses Absolutely no similarities between this and what Flower did. Actually, there are. The first punch thrown by Barton was accepted by the prosecution as self-defence as the eventual victim approached him in a threatening manner and made verbal threats of violence. However, ONCE THE VICTIM IS INJURED, the following punches are determined to constitute assault and no longer self-defence as the victim poses no threat. Barton had the opportunity to choose not to cause further injury, as did Flower.

Re: Ben Flower : Sun Oct 12, 2014 12:28 am  

Fully wrote:

Collision LOL. Flower could just run by Hohaia, he's at the side of him.

Watch out for that inswinger Lance!!!

Re: Ben Flower : Sun Oct 12, 2014 12:29 am  

Fully wrote:

But it wasn't a collision, as I've pointed out. You don't run with your arm down the side and then stick your arm out across someone's head as you're running if you're going to collide. Your arms would be in front of you as I've already described. You're wrong, end of - it's plain as day.

I'm sure if Flower had picked the ball up and scored, Hohaia would have ran to the ref and told him to check it for being taken out - would have still been picked up. If it was just a collision do you think Hohaia would have been incensed by it? Give over man.

And a still image proves nothing. You have to see before and after. I - like many others - have watched it numerous times. He comes running in and yes, makes contact with the head, but it is just handbags. May have got a yellow but we'll never know.

Are you a Wigan fan?

No, it wasn't an issue. If you penalize then you would be giving 5-6 penalties for similar incidents every game, especially in derby matches or the Grand Final FFS where everyone is fired up. There was absolutely nothing in the initial challenge. What this comes down to is that you're trying to create an issue that paints Flower as the bad guy because he later punched someone on the ground, and justifies Hohaia attacking an unsuspecting player in the head because he's a smaller man and was subsequently knocked out. If the roles had been reversed and it had been the much larger Flower deliberately running and leaping at Hohaia with an elbow then it would've likely caused a broken jaw and arguably be viewed as as bad an incident as what actually happened. Hohaia isn't blameless just because he wasn't physically capable of injuring Flower.