Re: Greatest player of all time? : Sat Nov 01, 2014 3:47 pm  

Voltaire wrote:

For example, take the current England international scrum half Matty Smith, full time player, oodles of time to train every facet of his game ,massive facilities at his disposal, sports science , numerous conditioners ,trainers , physios, doctors etc etc etc every advantage a player could possibly wish for...plays maybe 25 to 30 times a year on superb surfaces , with massive recovery resources.

International scrum half of the 80s Andy Gregory, part time in a non science era , very little back up apart from the odd physio , trains on dark nights for a few hours, plays on mud heaps at various times in a 40 plus game year, playing very often 3 times a week with no recovery resources.

Given those two scenarios i would suggest that Gregory is still some distance in front of Smith as a player...despite Smith having every advantage going over Gregory...

Now swap the scenarios around, give Gregory ALL the advantages, transport Smith into the 80s with all the disadvantages..what would the gap in quality be then..????

Hang on. Why is today seen as having an "advantage"? Why do you think players have all the time to train as much as they want on every facet of the game?
Gregory would have had to seriously improve his athleticism and speed, both of foot and of mind.
The game is far, far faster, players are far, far stronger and far more powerful. I'd say that's an advantage to Gregory not to Smith.
Players can't train all day long, in fact they'll probably do no more than 1.5 - 2 hours on-field training per day. Probably 3 days a week. The rest is recovery and rest time alongside off-field training. You train much more than that and your players will be tired on matchday.

If you put Gregory into that environment today he might flourish, he might crumble but I don't see why he's be somehow streets ahead of the top current SL players.

Too many RL fans have a habit of thinking players in the past were somehow amazing compared to modern players. Especially half backs because they put players through gaps. Well there were a hell of a lot more gaps and a far, far slower and much less effective defence for them to deal with. Just because it was better to watch doesn't mean it was a better standard.

Don't get me wrong I'm not one who thinks everything is better today either. But I think there's a lot of lack of respect for current players in RL when compared to past players. And I don't agree with it. I think today's players are just as skillfull.

I think if you put great players from the past into today's teams (having gone through modern training etc) then I think some would suffer and fall away and some would still be great players. And vice-versa for modern players.

[Durham Giant]

Re: Greatest player of all time? : Sat Nov 01, 2014 3:55 pm  

No one can give a definitive answer to this one it is all about opinions.

For me the best attacking player i have seen was Lockyer his passing ability was superb and he just seemed to be able to turn up for big games. He could change his passing style so quickly a few years ago he was going left and saw the gap closing turned right and without changing his body stance threw a 25 metre pass to his winger to go in for a great try. That one piece of skill to me was sublime.

Hard to explain but being able to pass without changing your body position is really difficult

Wally Lewis was a better defender though as well as a great attacking player.

Both were better than Johns IMHO

Trouble with this is that attackers only look good because the forward do the hard work. That s why i liked Hanley. Great tackler and with good go forward but a clever player as well.

From History though i would say Harold Wagstaff from Huddersfield played for 19 years as well as GB captain and everything i have read about him says that he stood head and shoulders above any other player of his time. Made his debut at the age of fifteen years 175 days old, Scored a try on his debut. He only weighed 11 stone at the time !!!!

I would guess that none of the others mentioned above made their debut at anything like that age.

Re: Greatest player of all time? : Sat Nov 01, 2014 4:55 pm  

Durham Giant wrote:

From History though i would say Harold Wagstaff from Huddersfield played for 19 years as well as GB captain and everything i have read about him says that he stood head and shoulders above any other player of his time. Made his debut at the age of fifteen years 175 days old, Scored a try on his debut. He only weighed 11 stone at the time !!!!

Made his debut before he was 16 and he was 11st? Sounds like standards were incredibly high back then. He would absolutely tear up the NRL nowadays.

Re: Greatest player of all time? : Sat Nov 01, 2014 5:01 pm  

Willie Horne.

Re: Greatest player of all time? : Sat Nov 01, 2014 5:28 pm  

As mentioned above, virtually impossible to pick out one ........ I've been watching since the 70's, and of players I've seen, there are a few candidates........

Ellery Hanley - without doubt the greatest British player of the last 40 years.

Darren Lockyer - the best full back I've ever seen, became one of the best stand offs.

Brett Kenny - kept Wally Lewis out of the Aussie team in '82 and Meninga out of the team in '86.

Re: Greatest player of all time? : Sat Nov 01, 2014 5:43 pm  

Kenny is a good shout. Even Billy Boston thinks he's the best player in history.

Re: Greatest player of all time? : Sat Nov 01, 2014 6:55 pm  

Buggo wrote:

Would Andy Gregory done much if he played in 2014?
His physique limited his ability to get any better with modern science.
I never really rated him to be honest, last of the old era, tough, crafty with ball skills and..................................
I doubt he would have made a first grade Club team in the modern era, its Horses for courses.

Andy Gregory would waltz into any current Superleague team

Re: Greatest player of all time? : Sat Nov 01, 2014 7:02 pm  

I personally can't argue against Johns - in my opinion he didn't have a weakness in his game. His vision and reading of a game was second to none, his passing game was superb, he revolutionised kicking out of hand, was a real strong runner and a great defender too - couple that with being the ultimate competitor, and I believe he takes it. He also wasn't afraid to rough it up and get stuck in when needed either - always a quality I've liked to see in a half back - he could never be bullied. Thurston is also a very good player, but nowhere near as good defensively as Johns or with ball in hand.

These arguments are always subjective, but I try and base my thoughts on a few of things - the first being was the player head and shoulders above his peers at the time and did he change the way the game was played. Finally, I try and take out natural physique and build as a factor as a true GREAT would have excelled without these advantages - so for instance Meninga wouldn't be up there for me, as a major factor in his ability was his size/physique against his peers at that time. Someone like Andrew Johns or Alan Langer are much more deserving for me in these arguments, as in theory, they're starting from a disadvantage physically and were still superstars.

As for British players, Hanley was awesome, but like Meninga, his pure physical advantage set him apart anyway (though he was also one of the best readers of the game). As a Leeds fan who started watching at the beginning of the 80's, I'll always give Schoey a nod in this sort of argument. Forget his persona and off field attitude towards fitness and sometimes his teammates - he was awesome for Leeds (carried us on his own for many years surrounded by utter gash), GB and also during his stint in the NRL. He was an excellent runner ball in hand, great vision, could pick the right passes and had a good kicking game too - wasn't a shoddy defender either. For me, his only in game weakness was he couldn't pass one way, so had to turn his back to throw the pass - though he used that to his advantage many a time, using his body to shield whether he'd passed or dummied and gone himself.

Re: Greatest player of all time? : Sat Nov 01, 2014 7:04 pm  

Going back a couple of generations - my old Grandad would have put Lewis Jones above anyone - obviously I never saw him play, but his reputation at Leeds is legendary.

Re: Greatest player of all time? : Sat Nov 01, 2014 7:06 pm  

Wigg'n wrote:

Kenny is a good shout. Even Billy Boston thinks he's the best player in history.

Billy Boston picking an ex-wiganer, shock horror.