[Uncle Rico]

Re: Why has RL never taken off in Manchester and Liverpool? : Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:39 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

This is the parochialism I was talking about.

I wasn't saying that a parochial approach doesn't hamper development RL in the two cities, by definition it must. However, I was suggesting that the greater obstacle was a lack of interest in these two cities.

In other words, there's nothing in it for these poor, parochial souls to unburden themselves of their yokes and expand into these cities, although it depends on what you mean by expanding...?

Re: Why has RL never taken off in Manchester and Liverpool? : Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:50 pm  

Uncle Rico wrote:

I wasn't saying that a parochial approach doesn't hamper development RL in the two cities, by definition it must. However, I was suggesting that the greater obstacle was a lack of interest in these two cities.

In other words, there's nothing in it for these poor, parochial souls to unburden themselves of their yokes and expand into these cities, although it depends on what you mean by expanding...?

Man Utd aren't in Manchester. But they don't hesitate to sell themselves in Manchester. They don't look at Trafford as their fiefdom. They will go in to Salford, Bolton, Wigan, Stockport, Cheshire, Bury (and much much further)

RL clubs are locked in to a view that Salford sell in Salford and that certain parts of Wigan is for Wigan and certain parts are for Leigh yet there are 200k+ people in Bolton next door where we aren't making in roads, there are people in Stockport and Bury and Trafford and Manchester where we don't make in roads. There are 2.5 million people in greater Manchester and we have clubs fighting for the same couple of thousand fans.

I'm not saying it's just those areas, there are 2.2m people in west Yorkshire and we have Wakefield and Cas fighting over the same 100k market. On other threads we have people arguing over whether Rothwell and Wetherby are 'really Leeds' and whether they're fighting with cas and Wakefield for the fans in garforth. There are people who complain that Leeds advertise in beeston or holbeck because South of the river is hunslet territory.

[Uncle Rico]

Re: Why has RL never taken off in Manchester and Liverpool? : Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:31 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

Man Utd aren't in Manchester. But they don't hesitate to sell themselves in Manchester. They don't look at Trafford as their fiefdom. They will go in to Salford, Bolton, Wigan, Stockport, Cheshire, Bury (and much much further)

RL clubs are locked in to a view that Salford sell in Salford and that certain parts of Wigan is for Wigan and certain parts are for Leigh yet there are 200k+ people in Bolton next door where we aren't making in roads, there are people in Stockport and Bury and Trafford and Manchester where we don't make in roads. There are 2.5 million people in greater Manchester and we have clubs fighting for the same couple of thousand fans.

I'm not saying it's just those areas, there are 2.2m people in west Yorkshire and we have Wakefield and Cas fighting over the same 100k market. On other threads we have people arguing over whether Rothwell and Wetherby are 'really Leeds' and whether they're fighting with cas and Wakefield for the fans in garforth. There are people who complain that Leeds advertise in beeston or holbeck because South of the river is hunslet territory.

I agree that clubs should expand their marketing territory, or rather not be restricted by it, but, there will be limited value to it as there isn't the interest, or are pointing the finger at say Saints and Widnes for a lack of RL interest in Liverpool? Maybe they should relocate to the city test that interest, take a chance on alienating their core business for a 'golden shot' at the big time? It's about budget, time and effort for tangible rewards and I don't think that the rewards are there, or the budget.

Yes, Manchester United a team that was based in Manchester and moved to Trafford....admittedly a successful model, but, not really fair comparative, given that they attract an average attendance equivalent to the whole of SL. In a significantly more high profile sport, they aren't even a fair comparison to the vast majority of worldwide football clubs. In reality, I don't think that Manchester United market themselves with an emphasis on the Manchester, they've gone beyond that and probably why they are a success in Trafford and far flung places like China

Re: Why has RL never taken off in Manchester and Liverpool? : Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:32 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

Man Utd aren't in Manchester. But they don't hesitate to sell themselves in Manchester. They don't look at Trafford as their fiefdom. They will go in to Salford, Bolton, Wigan, Stockport, Cheshire, Bury (and much much further)

RL clubs are locked in to a view that Salford sell in Salford and that certain parts of Wigan is for Wigan and certain parts are for Leigh yet there are 200k+ people in Bolton next door where we aren't making in roads, there are people in Stockport and Bury and Trafford and Manchester where we don't make in roads. There are 2.5 million people in greater Manchester and we have clubs fighting for the same couple of thousand fans.

I'm not saying it's just those areas, there are 2.2m people in west Yorkshire and we have Wakefield and Cas fighting over the same 100k market. On other threads we have people arguing over whether Rothwell and Wetherby are 'really Leeds' and whether they're fighting with cas and Wakefield for the fans in garforth. There are people who complain that Leeds advertise in beeston or holbeck because South of the river is hunslet territory.

Interesting post this.

I'm from Bolton and from a non-playing background, from a family that also never played or followed any RL team (no rugby of any code was played competitively in Bolton schools during my time due to an accident in a scrum that left a boy with a very bad neck injury).

My point of contact with the sport was 1980's televised Challenge Cup finals and the era just before Wigan's dominance of them. We also had a school visit from Des Drummond while he was at Leigh which was the only sporting professional of any kind to visit our schools.

Unfortunately it didn't turn me overnight into a fully fledged Leigh fan, but I've maintained an interest in them ever since and have seen them play a dozen or so times. I could never get behind Salford who I equate to being not only a Manchester team (there's a lot of civic rivalry between proud Boltonians and Mancunians), but specifically a Manchester United associated team.

There are a lot of Wigan fans in north Bolton and thanks to one I got an introduction to going to St Helens-Wigan derby matches at Central Park in the early 90's where to their dismay I nailed my colours to St Helens mast as I couldn't stand Wigan's dominance of the sport.

As an adult and someone from a non-heartland the things I love about RL are the fact that it's a summer sport, the tickets are easy to get hold of compared to soccer and following your team home and away (with the notable exception of one or two teams) is easily done again compared to soccer and the media coverage hasn't reached saturation point like soccer.

My main criticisms are the idea that liking RL is somehow incompatible with liking other sports, the incessant gimmickry, changes by the governing body to competition structures, the idea that traditional clubs should be allowed to wither on the vine - why throw away so much history?

Re: Why has RL never taken off in Manchester and Liverpool? : Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:22 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

Man Utd aren't in Manchester. But they don't hesitate to sell themselves in Manchester. They don't look at Trafford as their fiefdom. They will go in to Salford, Bolton, Wigan, Stockport, Cheshire, Bury (and much much further)

I've lived in Manchester most of my life and rarely do United 'sell themselves' around here, except a few campaigns in the MEN and the Tevez billboard. They don't generally need to (unless the occasional European game is selling short). Their sponsors, 'partners' and the media will do it for them.

I have, however, seen Salford marketing themselves far and wide, especially since Koukash took the helm. It's certainly not true to say they sell only in Salford. Far from it - they've targeted a wide catchment and are active on the radio, in local press and via other means including social media and mailshots.

For all practical purposes, 'Manchester' is the area within and bordering the M60 (sorry, Salford); the defined borders mean very little in reality. Except for a small hardcore in the Salford and Swinton area there is almost no interest in the game. A scattered passing interest, perhaps, but not much. Football areas are football areas and you haven't a cat in hell's chance of breaking in. But then there are other demographics people forget. A huge Jewish community in North Manchester. Enormous Asian (and other immigrant) communities in more areas than I can probably name. The large Afro-Caribbean community centred around Moss Side. A massive student population, many hailing from non-RL areas and many of whom remain in Manchester to live & work after university. Then there are areas such as Wythenshawe...though the less said about those the better. So there you have huge swathes of the population with - again, for all practical purposes - absolutely no interest in or indeed awareness of the game. The 'traditional' RL audience in Manchester is limited, so new inroads need to be found.

It has to start in the schools but that's a challenge in itself. A friend of mine coaches sport at a college nearby. He's a football man but also loves RL and when the Head of Sport decided the college would coach and play RU, it was simply due to funding and support from the RFU, who send development officers into colleges to help out. Some of the Sport England funding would do well bringing back the RFL development officers of a few years ago who were doing similar and making some strong inroads, including converting the school the Bury Broncos had moved to. Invest, invest and invest in get kids playing throughout their school lives and you have players and fans at the ready. Then you can start to think about cracking big cities who frankly don't care about RL.

Re: Why has RL never taken off in Manchester and Liverpool? : Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:27 pm  

Mash Butty wrote:

I blame panini

Damn right ......

They deliberately under produced the Gold & Silver foil Club badges to flog more stickers to unsuspecting 10 year olds.

It's a swizz i tell ya .... a SWIZZ !!!

Re: Why has RL never taken off in Manchester and Liverpool? : Fri Mar 24, 2017 6:04 pm  

Uncle Rico wrote:

I agree that clubs should expand their marketing territory, or rather not be restricted by it, but, there will be limited value to it as there isn't the interest, or are pointing the finger at say Saints and Widnes for a lack of RL interest in Liverpool? Maybe they should relocate to the city test that interest, take a chance on alienating their core business for a 'golden shot' at the big time? It's about budget, time and effort for tangible rewards and I don't think that the rewards are there, or the budget.

Yes, Manchester United a team that was based in Manchester and moved to Trafford....admittedly a successful model, but, not really fair comparative, given that they attract an average attendance equivalent to the whole of SL. In a significantly more high profile sport, they aren't even a fair comparison to the vast majority of worldwide football clubs. In reality, I don't think that Manchester United market themselves with an emphasis on the Manchester, they've gone beyond that and probably why they are a success in Trafford and far flung places like China

Whether they are in or out of the city is irrelevant to whether they can encompass the city. This is the parochial mindset that yokes us. Manchester are Manchester, liverpool are liverpool, Leigh are Leigh, Wigan are Wigan It isnt true. Manchester United arent in Manchester, yet the sell not only to people in Manchester and the surrounding area, but to people all over the country. And not only to people all over the country but to people who have never been within 5000 miles of Manchester.

its not that Man Utd can do the things they do because of the size they are, they are the size they are because they do the things they do.

Re: Why has RL never taken off in Manchester and Liverpool? : Fri Mar 24, 2017 6:37 pm  

Cronus wrote:

I've lived in Manchester most of my life and rarely do United 'sell themselves' around here, except a few campaigns in the MEN and the Tevez billboard. They don't generally need to (unless the occasional European game is selling short). Their sponsors, 'partners' and the media will do it for them.

I have, however, seen Salford marketing themselves far and wide, especially since Koukash took the helm. It's certainly not true to say they sell only in Salford. Far from it - they've targeted a wide catchment and are active on the radio, in local press and via other means including social media and mailshots.

Salford and Man Utd are at different stages of their lifecycle, you would expect their marketing to take different forms.

For all practical purposes, 'Manchester' is the area within and bordering the M60 (sorry, Salford); the defined borders mean very little in reality. Except for a small hardcore in the Salford and Swinton area there is almost no interest in the game. A scattered passing interest, perhaps, but not much. Football areas are football areas and you haven't a cat in hell's chance of breaking in. But then there are other demographics people forget. A huge Jewish community in North Manchester. Enormous Asian (and other immigrant) communities in more areas than I can probably name. The large Afro-Caribbean community centred around Moss Side. A massive student population, many hailing from non-RL areas and many of whom remain in Manchester to live & work after university. Then there are areas such as Wythenshawe...though the less said about those the better. So there you have huge swathes of the population with - again, for all practical purposes - absolutely no interest in or indeed awareness of the game. The 'traditional' RL audience in Manchester is limited, so new inroads need to be found.

Large Asian and Student populations? like Headingley? Large Afro-Caribbean community like Chapeltown, birthplace of the black pearl, added to a whole long history of RL players of Afro-Carribean Origin from all over the country. You tell me that RL can't break in to the Jewish population in Manchester while for years other clubs would make anti-semitic chants at Leeds because of the links with the Jewish Community.

Albert Rosenfeld was a Jew playing RL a hundred years ago, Billy Boston was a welshman of Afro-irish origin playing RL 60 years ago, Ellery Hanley is a yorkshireman of Jamaican origin who was playing RL 30 years ago and who became the first black man to coach a british national side 20 years ago. There has never been a traditional RL audience.

It has to start in the schools but that's a challenge in itself. A friend of mine coaches sport at a college nearby. He's a football man but also loves RL and when the Head of Sport decided the college would coach and play RU, it was simply due to funding and support from the RFU, who send development officers into colleges to help out. Some of the Sport England funding would do well bringing back the RFL development officers of a few years ago who were doing similar and making some strong inroads, including converting the school the Bury Broncos had moved to. Invest, invest and invest in get kids playing throughout their school lives and you have players and fans at the ready. Then you can start to think about cracking big cities who frankly don't care about RL.

Schools are hugely important to the overall health of the game, but expecting schools and youth rl to drive attendance is simply the wrong way round.

Re: Why has RL never taken off in Manchester and Liverpool? : Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:38 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

Salford and Man Utd are at different stages of their lifecycle, you would expect their marketing to take different forms.

What are you blathering on about? You said Salford only market themselves in Salford while United go all over Manchester 'selling' themselves, neither of which is true. Make your mind up.

Large Asian and Student populations? like Headingley? Large Afro-Caribbean community like Chapeltown, birthplace of the black pearl, added to a whole long history of RL players of Afro-Carribean Origin from all over the country. You tell me that RL can't break in to the Jewish population in Manchester while for years other clubs would make anti-semitic chants at Leeds because of the links with the Jewish Community.

Albert Rosenfeld was a Jew playing RL a hundred years ago, Billy Boston was a welshman of Afro-irish origin playing RL 60 years ago, Ellery Hanley is a yorkshireman of Jamaican origin who was playing RL 30 years ago and who became the first black man to coach a british national side 20 years ago.

Deary me. Apples and pears and you know it. Whether Leeds has Jewish links is irrelevant. We're talking about Manchester and the fact is that for all intents and purposes the Jewish population of Manchester currently has NO interest in rugby league. Neither has the Afro-Caribbean population. Or the Pakistani/Asian population. Or most of the student population. Or in fact most of the population.

Neither did I say RL couldn't break into the Jewish population of Manchester although now you mention it, I do think it would be next to impossible to make any significant inroads.

Oh, and the ethnicity of a handful of players is utterly irrelevant.

There has never been a traditional RL audience.

There hasn't?

Schools are hugely important to the overall health of the game, but expecting schools and youth rl to drive attendance is simply the wrong way round.

What are you blathering on about again? I didn't say anything about driving attendances. I said teaching and playing RL throughout the school & college life of children would deliver players and fans. As in 'some' players and fans. As in, progress.

Think you should give up the internet lad, I'm not even sure you know what you're saying anymore.

Re: Why has RL never taken off in Manchester and Liverpool? : Fri Mar 24, 2017 10:25 pm  

Cronus wrote:

What are you blathering on about? You said Salford only market themselves in Salford while United go all over Manchester 'selling' themselves, neither of which is true. Make your mind up.

There are different forms of marketing, applicable to the different stages a business goes through. Man Utd and Salford are at different stages. The when and where can be similar, the how different.

Deary me. Apples and pears and you know it. Whether Leeds has Jewish links is irrelevant. We're talking about Manchester and the fact is that for all intents and purposes the Jewish population of Manchester currently has NO interest in rugby league. Neither has the Afro-Caribbean population. Or the Pakistani/Asian population. Or most of the student population. Or in fact most of the population

Neither did I say RL couldn't break into the Jewish population of Manchester although now you mention it, I do think it would be next to impossible to make any significant inroads.

Oh, and the ethnicity of a handful of players is utterly irrelevant.

Pretty clearly, Judaism, an Afro-Caribbean community, a large student population, a large Asian population, are not disqualifying factors for a successful Rugby League club. These 'demographic barriers you suppose are irrelevant nonsense. We have our largest club based in a city with the third largest Jewish population in the country, in the the heart of the cities student population, within walking distance of no less than 4 universities. We have one of our other biggest clubs based in a city with 26% of its citizens are from Asian origin. No demographic is excluded or incompatible with our game.

Our game has a long and proud history of black-british and Afro-Caribbean players, what are you suggesting is the reason we have had success bringing through these players if not that the game is and can be popular within that community?

There hasn't?

No, just a lot of small minded parochial idiots who lay claim to its ownership

What are you blathering on about again? I didn't say anything about driving attendances. I said teaching and playing RL throughout the school & college life of children would deliver players and fans. As in 'some' players and fans. As in, progress.

You said that driving attendance growth had to start in school. Does it start at school or not?

Think you should give up the internet lad, I'm not even sure you know what you're saying anymore.

Woah, look at you handing out slap-downs on the internets. Careful now.