Re: Death of the half back : Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:23 pm  

I was a Five-Eighth back in the day.

Job was easy; all I had to do was find the two forwards that smoked 30 woodbines a day whilst necking their Newky Brown and slip a quick pass through the gap.

Things have moved on a bit since then.

Re: Death of the half back : Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:46 am  

sally cinnamon wrote:

Halfbacks have evolved, there are good halfbacks in many different forms. Sometimes its just nostalgia when people say they don't make halfbacks like they used to.

Andrew Johns was the best halfback of my lifetime watching RL, and he was hardly a traditional halfback. He was like a loose forward in many ways, doing a lot of tackling, dominating people in defence, when he had the ball close to the line he would hold people off and force his way over through physical strength like someone like Scully would. And of course he had the best kicking game in the world and was a great passer/distributer. But there is no way you would say Johns was a traditional halfback at all.

I would very much, call Johns a traditional half back. His game was about passing and kicking, not running. The fact he could tackle, and take it in as a forward, merely serves to highlight that he was a bit of a freak!

Re: Death of the half back : Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:07 am  

After looking through the previous posts, I find myself nodding my head over what's been said.

Either for good or bad, our game has evolved into (Rogues Gallery) re scooting runs and territory, and Sally Cinnamon (halves being a new loose forward)

The game is played at breakneck speed, now. No-one has anytime on the ball, despite 10m being between the sides at the play the ball, and only 5m, pre Super League.

I'm not an old stick-in-the-mud, but I do crave a half, that will actually keep hold of the ball, and run across the line to find his second-rower/centre with a beautifully timed pass (potentially the greatest sight known to man, apart from Susanna Reid emerging from the shower). Andy Gregory to Mark Roberts/Bobbie Goulding to Chris Joynt, anyone.
This is my one issue with Richie Myler. He's definately a very good player, BUT, at times, he's trying to get rid of the ball, quicker than a prostitute getting rid of a dose.

As good a player Sean Long was (plenty of pots to prove it), he wasn't what you'd call a traditional half-back. Yes, he created, but his game was hugely based on support play (and he was bloody good at it).

Is the half-back dead. Nah. It's merely "moved on".

[Winslade's Offload]

Re: Death of the half back : Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:00 am  

lefty goldblatt wrote:

After looking through the previous posts, I find myself nodding my head over what's been said.

Either for good or bad, our game has evolved into (Rogues Gallery) re scooting runs and territory, and Sally Cinnamon (halves being a new loose forward)

The game is played at breakneck speed, now. No-one has anytime on the ball, despite 10m being between the sides at the play the ball, and only 5m, pre Super League.

I'm not an old stick-in-the-mud, but I do crave a half, that will actually keep hold of the ball, and run across the line to find his second-rower/centre with a beautifully timed pass (potentially the greatest sight known to man, apart from Susanna Reid emerging from the shower). Andy Gregory to Mark Roberts/Bobbie Goulding to Chris Joynt, anyone.
This is my one issue with Richie Myler. He's definately a very good player, BUT, at times, he's trying to get rid of the ball, quicker than a prostitute getting rid of a dose.

As good a player Sean Long was (plenty of pots to prove it), he wasn't what you'd call a traditional half-back. Yes, he created, but his game was hugely based on support play (and he was bloody good at it).

Is the half-back dead. Nah. It's merely "moved on".

Good post. Or should I say it mirrors my views.


Has Myler been 'coached out' of hanging on to the ball and making a break ? For me he looks as close to a classical halfback as we are likely to see these days. Fast off the mark, instinctive in his reactions. Dwyer by contrast looks to be the product of a v good coaching school. He is quick, elusive, changes direction quickly and dangerous near the line. But, but, I can practically hear him thinking ' I'll have a scoot now'. The old halfbacks simply 'reacted' to an opening: the defender hesitated, slipped slightly or was standing a little too far away. The halfback was immediately through the gap and looking for a support player.

Am I talking rubbish here ? Perhaps nostalgia is getting in the way of common sense.

Re: Death of the half back : Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:25 am  

lefty goldblatt wrote:

After looking through the previous posts, I find myself nodding my head over what's been said.

Either for good or bad, our game has evolved into (Rogues Gallery) re scooting runs and territory, and Sally Cinnamon (halves being a new loose forward)

The game is played at breakneck speed, now. No-one has anytime on the ball, despite 10m being between the sides at the play the ball, and only 5m, pre Super League.

I'm not an old stick-in-the-mud, but I do crave a half, that will actually keep hold of the ball, and run across the line to find his second-rower/centre with a beautifully timed pass (potentially the greatest sight known to man, apart from Susanna Reid emerging from the shower). Andy Gregory to Mark Roberts/Bobbie Goulding to Chris Joynt, anyone.
This is my one issue with Richie Myler. He's definately a very good player, BUT, at times, he's trying to get rid of the ball, quicker than a prostitute getting rid of a dose.

As good a player Sean Long was (plenty of pots to prove it), he wasn't what you'd call a traditional half-back. Yes, he created, but his game was hugely based on support play (and he was bloody good at it).

Is the half-back dead. Nah. It's merely "moved on".

I'm paraphrasing sally here, but I don't think I am too far off; Long before his knee problem (Costin) relied on his pace to create gap. When he returned, his pace had diminished, so he taught himself to see the gaps. Playing with Tommy Martyn in the early part of his Saints career, probably helped him in that respect.

Re: Death of the half back : Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:45 pm  

When speaking of half-backs who are much better at passing the ball than running with it (which seems to be what most do these days) i'm surprised there's been no mention of Tim Smith....

Very much the 'old style' halfback who organises the whole team and always seems to be a step ahead of everyone else....earlier in the season he was getting stick left, right and centre from a lot of our fans and a lot of the criticism seemed to be that he wouldn't run with the ball and take the line on.....it seems there's an obsession amongst the current rugby league fans that halfbacks should be doing that....

Of course, early on in the season we were a completely new side and a lot of our players were so much off his wavelength it was making him look poor.....I don't think it's any coincidence though that towards the back end of the season the moves are starting to come off and players are learning to play off Smith the more they've been together......he's been setting up tries for fun in our end of the season winning run and along with your very own Lee Briers is at least another fantastic ball handling halfback plying his trade in Super League.....just hope he can rub off on some of our homegrown youngsters at the club who will be working with him in training....

Re: Death of the half back : Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:30 pm  

upthecats wrote:

When speaking of half-backs who are much better at passing the ball than running with it (which seems to be what most do these days) i'm surprised there's been no mention of Tim Smith....

Very much the 'old style' halfback who organises the whole team and always seems to be a step ahead of everyone else....earlier in the season he was getting stick left, right and centre from a lot of our fans and a lot of the criticism seemed to be that he wouldn't run with the ball and take the line on.....it seems there's an obsession amongst the current rugby league fans that halfbacks should be doing that....

Of course, early on in the season we were a completely new side and a lot of our players were so much off his wavelength it was making him look poor.....I don't think it's any coincidence though that towards the back end of the season the moves are starting to come off and players are learning to play off Smith the more they've been together......he's been setting up tries for fun in our end of the season winning run and along with your very own Lee Briers is at least another fantastic ball handling halfback plying his trade in Super League.....just hope he can rub off on some of our homegrown youngsters at the club who will be working with him in training....

A bit off topic-
People have praised Widnes this season for winning six games and finishing bottom. But Wakefield brought in as many new players as Widnes did and had new coaching staff too. You finished in the top 8. A fantastic achievement!

I doubt a RL fan in the country outside Leeds wont want you to win on Satnight. Good luck!


Tim Smith certainly fits the bill as a traditional half back.

Re: Death of the half back : Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:47 pm  

I have to agree with 'upthecats' I watched the game yesterday and was suitably impressed with Tim Smith. He looked head and shoulders above the rest, I will say he was selective when he got involved but he played at the line and pulled off some real quality which in the main let to scores.

In answer to other posts; I don't think the skills of the half back/5/8th are coached out of players, they are asked to play at the line which requires acute skills and timing coupled with good running of receivers.

Also mentioned was the desire for a quick play the ball having some bearing on the skills of the HB/5 8th, surely if teams get three in and fully control the ruck then we negate the QPTB and thus control the game, the HB then needs to develop lots of skills, kicking, passing and dare I say it running and then have the decision making skills to choose the right skill for that play.

As a coach I look for a spark of arrogance and attitude from my HB's, without it they will struggle to command the team and trust their skills. Also I encourage them to make decisions that push the envelope, this is how they learn.

Re: Death of the half back : Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:08 pm  

Michael Dobson.................

A mate of mine who is a wigan fan will always maintain Michael Dobson Was a class act .. and was their best (and only) scrum half since Andy Gregory...

ps I dont agree with the OP btw

Re: Death of the half back : Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:13 pm  

Over coaching. That's the issue pure and simple. Too many are obsessed with systems and attacking play-books from a very early age. I can see why, a fire-brand youngster who wants to do his own thing on the pitch, take risks, throw the miracle ball when a safer ball retaining one was on offer, run the blind side etc is a nightmare to coach. It goes against everything a coach wants to do - control everything. Neutering that problem is the easiest solution.

What those type of players need is guidance in choosing the right option - knowing when to go with the set play and when to switch when the opportunity arises. A much harder job than imposing a system, and certainly a more infuriating one. You need to have the whole team switched on to 'expect the unexpected' as a set play might switch because this player has seen a lazy defender or a hole open up in the line - but not where the set play was aiming for. Certainly players with this innate ability can lose you a game as well as win you one with their choices, but better decision making is something that comes with age - like in pretty much everything else in life. It just needs the right guidance

If you're talking current players who have that ability - obviously Lee Briers, as the Wakey fan said, Tim Smith (you don't win rookie of the year by being sh*t in the NRL), Thurston is a master at playing what's in front of him, Sam Tomkins was a half and could well be again a'la Lockyer, Todd Carney with the right guidance, same with Shaun Johnson of the Warriors. Myler's getting better, but i still see him as more a runner. Ratchford seems the more capable though.